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Dave Scadden vs Watermaster

Boats 
38K views 154 replies 38 participants last post by  Steezn290 
#1 ·
I'm looking at 2 different frameless one man boats. I'm leaning towards one more than the other, but i'll make a final decision after I read some posts.

First let me explain my fishing "career." I started trout fishing around 10 years ago. I purchased my first drift boat as soon as I had enough money from my first job (16 years old). I went off to college right after graduating highschool and started guiding out of my first boat. I then purchased my second boat which I had for 2 years. I purchased my last boat (which is up for sale) a little over a year ago for one last summer. Let's just say I'm an experienced oarsman and I know what to do with a fly rod in my hand.

People may be asking the question why does this kid want to sell his drift boat and get a frameless little raft. Well it comes down to the simple fact that I am sick and tired of rowing other people down the river to fish while I sit behind the sticks. Even on my days off with friends, it seems like I spend more time behind the stick than fishing. Also it doesn't make sense to spend the extra money in gas and insurance for a huge rig to tow around boat that isn't making me money anymore.

That being said i've come to the decision to purchase a couple (same kind) one man rigs. Does anyone think i'm crazy?

I have narrowed the rigs to two different manufactures. The Dave Scadden Rampage and the Watermaster Kodiak. I plan to put almost every upgrade into my boat so don't think i'm going to skimp and buy the basics. I know I need the best to make me happy if i'm getting rid of my boat.

This all being said.... What do you guys/gals think is the better manufacturer and boat? Which is better for the montana and north idaho rivers?
 
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#87 ·
What area do you usually go to? Just generally. I stay pretty close as I have a place on the Cowichan River in the FF Only section of the upper river. I've drifted the Cowie with my new Scadden and it works well. anchoring with a Scotty rig is a little tricky. Can't wait to try the Lake.
 
#89 ·
I've owned a watermaster silvertip and an assaultxx

The watermaster seems like it's the more durable boat long term.

The AssaultXX rows easier even though it's a two man boat. However, it feels cheaper and less durable.

I think if you saw both boats side by side 8 out of 10 people would choose the watermaster if the price was the same. It's clearly a better made boat and will last a lot longer than the NFO stuff. The material seems heftier, the seams seem sturdier, and the finish is much better than the NFO products.

That being said, can you really beat the value of NFO boats? There was an Assault on the classified for $600 the other day. That's a damn fine boat for $600! I love rowing my assault. It's a great boat even loaded up with a bunch of gear and two guys. I am just worried when something goes wrong I'll be out of commission for a couple months waiting for parts. Only time will tell in terms of durability.
 
#90 ·
I've owned a watermaster silvertip and an assaultxx

The watermaster seems like it's the more durable boat long term.

The AssaultXX rows easier even though it's a two man boat. However, it feels cheaper and less durable.

I think if you saw both boats side by side 8 out of 10 people would choose the watermaster if the price was the same. It's clearly a better made boat and will last a lot longer than the NFO stuff. The material seems heftier, the seams seem sturdier, and the finish is much better than the NFO products.

That being said, can you really beat the value of NFO boats? There was an Assault on the classified for $600 the other day. That's a damn fine boat for $600! I love rowing my assault. It's a great boat even loaded up with a bunch of gear and two guys. I am just worried when something goes wrong I'll be out of commission for a couple months waiting for parts. Only time will tell in terms of durability.
I am truly not trying to start anything here, but I would like to know, what parts are you referring to?
 
#94 ·
I would like to spell the whole sordid mess out, but at this time my case is still ongoing. If/when my case is finished I will gladly post every document and explain everything. Like I said earlier, frame pieces are missing/wrong/damaged. Those are not accessories, but needed to use the boat. Combine that with bad quality control in the manufacturing of the boat itself and the frame, it is evident that there was a total lack of pride in craftsmanship and professionalism. I challenge you and anyone else to please show me where you have repeatedly purchased anything else in life that you were told these things and then when they did not come to fruition you just accepted it and said "oh well, at least I got part of it". I guarantee that if you bought a car with no engine(substitute oars here) that you would be screaming at the top of your lungs for it to be fixed. Or if you ordered a V-8(insert power strokes here) in a pickup and when it showed up at your house, it had a four-banger(insert aluminum oars here) you would not say, oh well. If you bought a laptop with no processor(substitute oars here) you would not stand for it. If you bought a book with no last page, you would demand that it be included. The list goes on and on. You can use this for ALL of the issues that have happened in my purchase from NFO. How many times have you taken something back because it was not what you ordered. How many times have you said something when the food you ordered was not what was put on the table. In the printed and video advertising of NFO products, there are essential items that are hyped to be the reason one should buy NFO instead of the other brands. When for years they are in print and video, you would expect and demand that they are included in your purchase. When they are not included and you are told for months that, yes you will get these items, and then after months of waiting you are told that they are no longer included even though you paid for them. Dave expects you to accept the fact that he lied to you and you are getting cheated out of the promised items. The cheap oars that were included are the cheap aluminum oars that were NOT supposed to be included and were sent anyway. If you notice, they are SOOO bad that neither Dave nor just about anyone of his supporters on video will use them. That should say volumes about them. I accept that if a person was using them on still water and not having to actually row them very far, they might be acceptable to some people. The other companies are not offering his oars, because they probably will not do business with him. I noticed recently that even his "trick" lite speed oars are not the same brand as they were a few years ago. He was using Carlisle Magic Plus. Now he is using Aqua-Bound Manta Ray. For the record, if you look on Aqua-Bound's web site, they state that the Aqua-Bound Manta Ray oars that Dave is selling are "ENTRY LEVEL" recreational kayak paddles. Dave adds a couple of extensions onto it and drills a couple of holes. Then he jacks the price up. Folks, it is a $109 kayak paddle! This is straight off of their site.

Recreational Kayak Paddles - For the casual paddler who still desires quality!

Aqua-Bound recreational paddles are entry-level paddles that deliver elevated performance and durability. These paddles are ideal for the recreational kayaker who enjoys day trips, fishing, shore exploring or exercise, and who looks for quality that's beyond ordinary.
Manta Ray Fiberglass Kayak Paddle

 
#95 ·
I would like to spell the whole sordid mess out, but at this time my case is still ongoing. If/when my case is finished I will gladly post every document and explain everything. Like I said earlier, frame pieces are missing/wrong/damaged. Those are not accessories, but needed to use the boat. Combine that with bad quality control in the manufacturing of the boat itself and the frame, it is evident that there was a total lack of pride in craftsmanship and professionalism. I challenge you and anyone else to please show me where you have repeatedly purchased anything else in life that you were told these things and then when they did not come to fruition you just accepted it and said "oh well, at least I got part of it". I guarantee that if you bought a car with no engine(substitute oars here) that you would be screaming at the top of your lungs for it to be fixed. Or if you ordered a V-8(insert power strokes here) in a pickup and when it showed up at your house, it had a four-banger(insert aluminum oars here) you would not say, oh well. If you bought a laptop with no processor(substitute oars here) you would not stand for it. If you bought a book with no last page, you would demand that it be included. The list goes on and on. You can use this for ALL of the issues that have happened in my purchase from NFO. How many times have you taken something back because it was not what you ordered. How many times have you said something when the food you ordered was not what was put on the table. In the printed and video advertising of NFO products, there are essential items that are hyped to be the reason one should buy NFO instead of the other brands. When for years they are in print and video, you would expect and demand that they are included in your purchase. When they are not included and you are told for months that, yes you will get these items, and then after months of waiting you are told that they are no longer included even though you paid for them. Dave expects you to accept the fact that he lied to you and you are getting cheated out of the promised items. The cheap oars that were included are the cheap aluminum oars that were NOT supposed to be included and were sent anyway. If you notice, they are SOOO bad that neither Dave nor just about anyone of his supporters on video will use them. That should say volumes about them. I accept that if a person was using them on still water and not having to actually row them very far, they might be acceptable to some people. The other companies are not offering his oars, because they probably will not do business with him. I noticed recently that even his "trick" lite speed oars are not the same brand as they were a few years ago. He was using Carlisle Magic Plus. Now he is using Aqua-Bound Manta Ray. For the record, if you look on Aqua-Bound's web site, they state that the Aqua-Bound Manta Ray oars that Dave is selling are "ENTRY LEVEL" recreational kayak paddles. Dave adds a couple of extensions onto it and drills a couple of holes. Then he jacks the price up. Folks, it is a $109 kayak paddle! This is straight off of their site.

Recreational Kayak Paddles - For the casual paddler who still desires quality!

Aqua-Bound recreational paddles are entry-level paddles that deliver elevated performance and durability. These paddles are ideal for the recreational kayaker who enjoys day trips, fishing, shore exploring or exercise, and who looks for quality that's beyond ordinary.
Manta Ray Fiberglass Kayak Paddle

After busting my butt all day at work, and finding out that my mother-in-law will be staying another two weeks, I honestly could not think of a single thing that would put a smile on my face. But, behold the wounderfull comunity of fly fishers on my favorit website in the world has just turned my frown upside down, THANK YOU!!!!! LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#98 ·
I too am sorry you are having such a bad time. I know the Oars are a big issue here, I was just curious as to the actual boat parts that you did not receive. Clips, foot pegs, holders? And are they still on back order so to speak?

As for the Light Speed Oars, they are intended for frameless models. I have them and they are fantastic. Hats off to Aqua.
 
#104 ·
Seems that some of us have had a good experience with Scadden (myself included),
...but unfortunately for whatever reason others have not.

Based on what I've read I don't believe that anyone on this forum is blaming anyone else here, just that some are more than a little frustrated with their experience dealing with NFO.

I will say (admittedly, a little sheepishly) that I've really been enjoying my NFO Renegade, and I sincerely hope things eventually work out for those of you that have had to endure what you've had to go through.
 
#108 ·
I've been fortunate to be able to spend 100+ days a year on the water for the past 20 years or so. When I run into others on the water the conversation always turns to our boats. I like boats, I've had all types of boats, and currently don't have 2 from any 1 manufacturer. The stories I've heard from Scadden owners have varied from happy customers to not happy customers. People who have bought NFO boats have been sent packages with no clips or missing clips, oar locks missing, seams that are very questionable, different length oars that were shipped, broken seat at delivery, etc. Seams I saw on 1 persons new boat shouldn't have made it out of the factory, much less into a customers shipment. None of those are distribution problems. This isn't me baiting someone into bitching or even mentioning my own dealing with NFO. Those who have had customer service issues don't complain about the boat, only the company. You would expect most people to have favorable dealings with the company based on volume of boats sold. My sample size is probably around 30 different encounters, on the water not the internet. To have that many issues with that small sample size is astounding. Getting it right 8 or 9 out of 10 times is still pretty pathetic.

Customer service has been from outstanding (as should be expected from any reputable company), to along the lines of what I described in another post. The proverbial blank stare followed by an I'm sorry followed by no response to the issues whatsoever. This is on the water experience from real people. Sure, most people receive what they order but the numbers of people who don't is amazing. Most of those who have had a hard time contacting the company or getting things resolved have stated they feel like they've simply been shined on and then ignored.


Examples given are from people I've personally met on the water, not stories on the internet.
 
#116 ·
I've been fortunate to be able to spend 100+ days a year on the water for the past 20 years or so. When I run into others on the water the conversation always turns to our boats. I like boats, I've had all types of boats, and currently don't have 2 from any 1 manufacturer. The stories I've heard from Scadden owners have varied from happy customers to not happy customers. People who have bought NFO boats have been sent packages with no clips or missing clips, oar locks missing, seams that are very questionable, different length oars that were shipped, broken seat at delivery, etc. Seams I saw on 1 persons new boat shouldn't have made it out of the factory, much less into a customers shipment. None of those are distribution problems. This isn't me baiting someone into bitching or even mentioning my own dealing with NFO. Those who have had customer service issues don't complain about the boat, only the company. You would expect most people to have favorable dealings with the company based on volume of boats sold. My sample size is probably around 30 different encounters, on the water not the internet. To have that many issues with that small sample size is astounding. Getting it right 8 or 9 out of 10 times is still pretty pathetic.

Customer service has been from outstanding (as should be expected from any reputable company), to along the lines of what I described in another post. The proverbial blank stare followed by an I'm sorry followed by no response to the issues whatsoever. This is on the water experience from real people. Sure, most people receive what they order but the numbers of people who don't is amazing. Most of those who have had a hard time contacting the company or getting things resolved have stated they feel like they've simply been shined on and then ignored.

Examples given are from people I've personally met on the water, not stories on the internet.
You know since I got my boat in April I have seen and talked to many people here in Canada that have Scadden products . Most were bought recently and shipped. I talked to noone that had an issue with anything and they were all happy with the product for the price they paid. I paid considerably less than the Xmas Special price he offered, actually much less than 1/2 suggested retail ($3000) as it was a " Show Special". I picked mine up on site so had no possible shipping issue. But the one thing I had shipped after i got home arrived in 3 days to my door as previously mentioned. I have no problem with the quality of construction, ie seams etc so I have to conclude that I must have been either very lucky or their manufacturing & quality control has improved since earlier days. I will continue to ask these questions as I meet other owners on the water and provide honest feedback - good or bad. This thread has proven to be very interesting.
 
#109 ·
I have two Scadden boats, Skykomish Sunrise and the Madison. Both boats are bladderless . I have only dealt with NFO on one occasion, I ordered the fancy sunburst oars from them, on sale for I believe around two hundred and fifty dollars. When I opened the package they were black blades, I contacted them ( I will admit that it took more than a few tries :D ) and mentioned the problem. I was sent the proper set and when I again contacted them ( about what to do with the black set ) I actually talked to Dave, he said keep the original set for my being patient about the mix up. So for the past four years I have two sets of oars, one to use on the Skykomish and the second set strapped to the Madison when I run heavy water. Oh both my Scadden boats were bought second hand off the Fly BC boards classified section, one from a guy in Washington State and the Madison out of Kelowna BC.
 
#113 ·
I have two Scadden boats, Skykomish Sunrise and the Madison. Both boats are bladderless . I have only dealt with NFO on one occasion, I ordered the fancy sunburst oars from them, on sale for I believe around two hundred and fifty dollars. When I opened the package they were black blades, I contacted them ( I will admit that it took more than a few tries :D ) and mentioned the problem. I was sent the proper set and when I again contacted them ( about what to do with the black set ) I actually talked to Dave, he said keep the original set for my being patient about the mix up. So for the past four years I have two sets of oars, one to use on the Skykomish and the second set strapped to the Madison when I run heavy water. Oh both my Scadden boats were bought second hand off the Fly BC boards classified section, one from a guy in Washington State and the Madison out of Kelowna BC.
That sounds like very good service that followed an unfortunate packing mistake. It would appear to me that Mr Scadden should pursue better quality control on his distribution system.
 
#112 ·
I am not sure why you took it that way. If Dave treated someone wrong, then it will come back and bite him (Dave) in the behind, how is that is an attack?
Again, no "defending" here at all, I just wanted to know what parts were missing.
Why do you think that just because some have had no issues and really like NFO that they must work for them?
 
#114 ·
I am not sure why you took it that way. If Dave treated someone wrong, then it will come back and bite him (Dave) in the behind, how is that is an attack?
Again, no "defending" here at all, I just wanted to know what parts were missing.
Why do you think that just because some have had no issues and really like NFO that they must work for them?
NO! You were writing a response to CMustang1 and you said get gets back to you (talking about cmustang1 not Dave.)

Why exactly are you side stepping around the question? It's a simple yes or no question. :)
 
#117 ·
Yes or no what? Mustang said he is taking Dave to court soooo I said that hopefully Dave gets what he deserves in Mustangs eyes...is that straight stepping for you? What are you trying to accomplish here?
As far as the customer service, You even said you had problems with your oars by WM. Then you were suppose to send the defect back. I think that was all that was meant by this post.
I think you are trying to read between the lines. And on that note, I am ottahere
 
#118 ·
Yes or no what? Mustang said he is taking Dave to court soooo I said that hopefully Dave gets what he deserves in Mustangs eyes...is that straight stepping for you? What are you trying to accomplish here?
As far as the customer service, You even said you had problems with your oars by WM. Then you were suppose to send the defect back. I think that was all that was meant by this post.
I think you are trying to read between the lines. And on that note, I am ottahere
I think he (Steezn290) is looking for a YES or NO answer to the question if you were or are an employee of Mr. Dave Scadden.
 
#124 ·
20 years ago I was hired to work in his fishing shop Angler's Inn. I hardly knew him and just wanted to work in a fly shop. I broke my leg and it never happened. Since, then the only dealings is at tying expos which is generally when I buy a new boat.
What credibility do I have that any one else here that owns NFO doesn't have?
Like them, I just have hands on info.
 
#125 ·
Well first off you have a reason to defend him.... Second... You can probably walk right into the factory and get what you need since you are not that far. Third.... he'll give you better service because he at least know who are.

Basically your experience with him isn't from you ordering online or over the phone and seeing what comes in the mail. My guess is you as a customer (or someone who knows him) walk into his office... shake his hand.... talk for a little bit... walk into the back... select your boat... Load up all your ne gear and leave to go home.... knowing all the right things are there.... If you have a problem you go to the factory and pick up your part.... and you are a happy customer.

Now for the regular customer... you call or order on-line... They put your gear in a box... and lets just give him the benefit of the doubt that he gets 9 out of 10 orders correct.... You get shipped a box with all your gear.... crap it has the wrong oars... well you call him up... he says he'll get them right out.... 2 weeks pass you call again... he apologizes and says he'll get them out.... you call again... he doesn't answer cause he knows he doesn't have the part in the back... a month passes you still don't have the parts you need to go fish..... you call again... he says he'll fix the problem.... another month passes... you call again and he apologizes.... fishing season is over.... FML :(

So lets compare the two experience. Is your experience equal to the average customer.... NO... NOT AT ALL! Thus your info is credible (sorry for saying it wasn't).. It is for sure credible.... Just not what the average customer will experience. Thus making everything you say about Dave Scadden and his boats meaningless to the 99.5% of people who purchase his boats!
 
#131 ·
This is gone to far as far as I am concerned it is obvious that some have a great or good experience and some don't and that applies to anything in life. To carry a thread this far is a joke. I thinks it's about time this thread is closed as it went personal a long time ago.
Just my 2 cents. :) :mad: Take your pick.
 
#132 ·
This is gone to far as far as I am concerned it is obvious that some have a great or good experience and some don't and that applies to anything in life. To carry a thread this far is a joke. I thinks it's about time this thread is closed as it went personal a long time ago.
Just my 2 cents. :) :mad:Take your pick.
I agree me giving a review on the water masters I purchased is apparently a bad idea. Because the Scadden group wanted to proceed to tell me why Scaddens are the way to go... Kinda pissed me off. Time to let it go.

(but I think this thread is useful for people in the future trying to decide between the two companies)
 
#147 ·
Since this thread was originally about Watermaster vs. Scadden boats, I'll post my initial review of my assault xx. I had read & was aware of the complaints regarding NFO's customer service problems but I had also noticed that most people liked the boats. Being on a budget I kept searching craigslist, fly boards etc for a used boat. I found an ad with a guy wanting to sell a WM Kodiak & another ad with a guy selling the assault xx. They were both about a 3 hour drive from my house but in opposite directions. Both boats were essentially brand new. I made them both offers. The guy with the WM wasn't in a hurry to sell & was firm on his price. The guy with the assault was ready to sell. I drove out & the boat was brand new, never put in the water & just purchased at a fly show earlier this year. I didn't hesitate to buy it. It also helped that I got it for $800 less than the "show special".

Anyways, I took it out for the first time this past weekend. it took me about 20 minutes to get it set up & on the water. I was pleased at how well it scooted across the water. My previous experience had been in a Trinity Outcast float tube that I have been using for the last 8 years. I was getting tired of the long slow kicks back in at the end of the day. The Assault XX was way quicker getting from point a to point b. I only have the stock aluminum oars but they worked fine. The boat was long enough that i could have two rods rigged up & lay them beside me out of the way. I have the adjustable Force Fins & it was no harder maneuvering the boat with them than my float tube.In the afternoon the wind picked up & I was still able to scoot thru the waves with no problem.

Overall, I found the boat to be well made & have no complaints. It worked great for my intended purposes.

All that being said, if the guy with the Kodiak had responded first, I would have bought it & posted a review of how it worked out.
 
#151 ·
I’d go with the Watermaster. I bought a Rampage with all of the bells and whistles about 18 months ago. After using it at most 10 times, the boat developed blisters on the top and bottom section of the forward pontoons. During a fishing trip in February on a small lake, one of the blisters popped and started leaking air - thus ending my on-the-water fishing earlier then I had anticipated.

I circled all of the blisters with a magic marker and sent the boat back to Dave. When I spoke to Derrick with NFO the following week he didn’t seem pleased that I had marked up the boat because he said “they could not resell it.” Didn’t know they were selling re-conditioned boats.

To make a long story endless, I waited 10 weeks only to have my boat sent to an address I where I no longer live (NFO lost my letter with my concerns and contact information). In the box with my boat was an undated letter saying that my boat had been tested and that it held air (it doesn’t). So much for the unconditional lifetime warranty. I am really disappointed with Scadden products and their customer service.
 
#152 ·
I'd go with the Watermaster. I bought a Rampage with all of the bells and whistles about 18 months ago. After using it at most 10 times, the boat developed blisters on the top and bottom section of the forward pontoons. During a fishing trip in February on a small lake, one of the blisters popped and started leaking air - thus ending my on-the-water fishing earlier then I had anticipated.

I circled all of the blisters with a magic marker and sent the boat back to Dave. When I spoke to Derrick with NFO the following week he didn't seem pleased that I had marked up the boat because he said "they could not resell it." Didn't know they were selling re-conditioned boats.

To make a long story endless, I waited 10 weeks only to have my boat sent to an address I where I no longer live (NFO lost my letter with my concerns and contact information). In the box with my boat was an undated letter saying that my boat had been tested and that it held air (it doesn't). So much for the unconditional lifetime warranty. I am really disappointed with Scadden products and their customer service.
Sorry to hear... Don't give up on the industry just the company... Watermaster makes great boats that have been around for 20+ years!
 
#154 ·
I imagine the original poster made his choice but I've not read all 8 pages to learn which boat. I also looked at the same watercraft & chose the Rampage. I knew about the comments of gd quality vs. poorer customer service going into this, so I won't complain but I will state facts. I bought the Rampage and I really enjoy it. After 2 yrs of Midwest drought, it has finally seen some river action. Lakes are great but rivers touch my soul.
If I had to do it over again would I get something different? I still don't know since I've never been in any frameless pontoon aside from this one. Before I forget I do have a question that I will likely answer on my next river trip: How much water does this Rampage 'draft'?... or how shallow can the water get, on average, w/o the toon dragging bottom. Just a general idea. I think about 3", depending on person's wt and cargo.
RE: customer service. When I called and Dave actually answered the phone (not answering machine), customer service was very good. He is a wealth of knowledge and very helpful. He is slow to return ph calls or doesn't return them. I do know he is busy. As another forum member recommended I asked for itemized receipt before toon, etc sent. I also asked that he let me know when it was being sent cuz I was going on vacation. He agreed. the toon came & this huge box sat on my front stoop when I came home from work 1 day before vacation. No itemized receipt. But, as I knew was likely, some items back-ordered. Nothing vital. The notice for this came with the toon. When I upgraded oars, the holes were not drilled correctly. It was obviously rough, etc. Return. I was told I could set pkg outside for pick-up... but in reality it would be if I wanted to pay for this service. Cotter (?) pins missing to lock in the foot bar. No biggie & could be found at a hardware store. But, I didn't know what locked the bar into place and had to email repeatedly to get info/product. Finally, my state wanted 'certificate of origin' to allow me to register the boat/pay taxes on it. To be upfront, during 1-2 ph calls to Dave I totally forgot to talk to him about this as we were talking about other things. My fault. However, I emailed politely and repeatedly and called & left msg with no communication back re: certificate. Months after purchase (instructions reported fines for being late with registration and/or taxes.. I don't quite remember), I started to work through process of paying tax & registering. I had to call and email multiple people. I was told by law the certificate has to be supplied and I was asked to give Dave's name/address. I think coast guard was going to contact him??? This I felt badly about, but I didn't have any choice in how I had to register the boat. there were many hoops through which to jump, but I'm happy to say I was not fined (& I live in IL!) Due to this latter experience, I'm very hesitant to contact him anymore. On my recent river trip, I was really thinking that flip fins would've been GREAT! I'd like to learn more about them (do they fit over my woman's feet in sandals or just wading boots?) but I may purchase elsewhere & communicate with someone else. No, on my end the transaction was prolonged and had hiccups. However, as a customer I had tons of questions and am highly detailed. I think we both suffered. If coast guard did contact him, he might not want me contacting him! what if I had warranty problems? I would dread that. But, would I buy another inflatable from him or a frame? .... maybe. again, the challenge is that one cannot try out the product ahead of time.
Now the toon itself: I've never put it in its bag. Looks like a PITA to do so. It stays rolled up in corner of tying room when not in use. Of course one goes backward when one fins. That is just the way it is. It is much easier and faster to row backward as well. Rowing forward, if windy, one would get a somewhat wet bottom but that is about the only time unless you are sweating or... well, never mind! LOL. Rowing forward is slower. When drifting, esp if there is a current, the toon wants and will turn backward. That is annoying, esp when friends on river in their less expensive 2-tubed toons don't have to struggle to stay forwards. This, to me, is the largest drawback of this u-shaped design. Do I want to return the toon? No. The stock aluminum oars crossed over each other at the handles which I found v. annoying. If you don't like this set -up tell him and he said he could alter this. The carbon oars are nice and do speed rowing up. No regrets. The plastic hand grips spin & slip upwards so I think they need glue (?). Life goes on. I have a cloth seat and it has 2 stays for the back. for some reason, one stay has torn the seam in the upper part of the seat back & is popping out. toon is on its 3rd year, light use though, but 3rd year &there is that customer service concern. I think a shoe store would fix it. It takes about 8minutes to hand pump up the toon. Then add bags, oars, and all my goodies. 8 minutes on a hot, humid midwest day seems a long time. I'm looking into a pump that connects to car battery for power.. maybe one from Sea Eagle?? Maybe that is more than what I need and a $60 one from Gander would be fine.... The black bags are handy. Just know that they are not made for right and left hand sides. One cup holder will be forward & the other will be at the back. No biggie. What has been annoying for me & maybe I'm doing something wrong, is that the bags make contact with my hands or oars when I'm rowing. Plus, to get the oars up from their resting positons takes extra time d/t the same thing. This is troubling at times. They would not work for me sitting on the toon tubes themselves. Totally in way of oars. I have them sitting beside me and they still are in the way, esp the one on my right side. I loosen the velcro strap to shift bag backward but the seat limits this movement. Operator error? Are the d rings in the wrong spot? Does my seat position make a difference? I'm 5'7". The bags hold a lot. I do use a side pocket to hold my rod. Not perfect but I don't have a formal rod holder. It works. My pump takes up most of space in one bag but I can still get a fair amount of items in that bag. The toon is light and easy to pull up banks, minus cooler, etc. It really scoots on the water when I'm rowing. I absolutely love to fin with it and will do this more than anything & I do track well. If anyone could come up with a way to efficiently fin forward, I'd be in 7th heaven. I've banged into rocks with the toon and I've had to drag it some distances but I don't go crazy on rough surfaces. It is durable.
Summary, etc.
A friend of mine owns 2 Scadden framed toons. He bought them at least 6-8 yrs ago & I they were 10 yrs old then. I do believe Dave puts out a quality product. So, if you are patient with regard to the less-than-stellar customer service and can wait if items are on back-order (as you will likely learn this when you get a partial order), I'd recommend his watercraft. I knew of customer service ahead of time so was prepared, in a way, for things when they came up. If you can actually talk to the guy, he is a wealth of knowledge. BTW, his website says it takes 2 minutes to air up the Rampage, I believe, with a 12 volt (?) pump. I'm skeptical. I'd guess 5 minutes & I've read that one still needs to top off with hand pump. Uncertain of this. To unload from CRV and to completely set-up toon, don fins, & put rod together likely takes me about 30-40 minutes but I don't race through it. Website reports it is ok on Class IV water. It is good quality, but I wouldn't row it there. However, I wouldn't row anything there. Someone else would skipper that boat.
 
#155 ·
I imagine the original poster made his choice but I've not read all 8 pages to learn which boat. I also looked at the same watercraft & chose the Rampage. I knew about the comments of gd quality vs. poorer customer service going into this, so I won't complain but I will state facts. I bought the Rampage and I really enjoy it. After 2 yrs of Midwest drought, it has finally seen some river action. Lakes are great but rivers touch my soul.
If I had to do it over again would I get something different? I still don't know since I've never been in any frameless pontoon aside from this one. Before I forget I do have a question that I will likely answer on my next river trip: How much water does this Rampage 'draft'?... or how shallow can the water get, on average, w/o the toon dragging bottom. Just a general idea. I think about 3", depending on person's wt and cargo.
RE: customer service. When I called and Dave actually answered the phone (not answering machine), customer service was very good. He is a wealth of knowledge and very helpful. He is slow to return ph calls or doesn't return them. I do know he is busy. As another forum member recommended I asked for itemized receipt before toon, etc sent. I also asked that he let me know when it was being sent cuz I was going on vacation. He agreed. the toon came & this huge box sat on my front stoop when I came home from work 1 day before vacation. No itemized receipt. But, as I knew was likely, some items back-ordered. Nothing vital. The notice for this came with the toon. When I upgraded oars, the holes were not drilled correctly. It was obviously rough, etc. Return. I was told I could set pkg outside for pick-up... but in reality it would be if I wanted to pay for this service. Cotter (?) pins missing to lock in the foot bar. No biggie & could be found at a hardware store. But, I didn't know what locked the bar into place and had to email repeatedly to get info/product. Finally, my state wanted 'certificate of origin' to allow me to register the boat/pay taxes on it. To be upfront, during 1-2 ph calls to Dave I totally forgot to talk to him about this as we were talking about other things. My fault. However, I emailed politely and repeatedly and called & left msg with no communication back re: certificate. Months after purchase (instructions reported fines for being late with registration and/or taxes.. I don't quite remember), I started to work through process of paying tax & registering. I had to call and email multiple people. I was told by law the certificate has to be supplied and I was asked to give Dave's name/address. I think coast guard was going to contact him??? This I felt badly about, but I didn't have any choice in how I had to register the boat. there were many hoops through which to jump, but I'm happy to say I was not fined (& I live in IL!) Due to this latter experience, I'm very hesitant to contact him anymore. On my recent river trip, I was really thinking that flip fins would've been GREAT! I'd like to learn more about them (do they fit over my woman's feet in sandals or just wading boots?) but I may purchase elsewhere & communicate with someone else. No, on my end the transaction was prolonged and had hiccups. However, as a customer I had tons of questions and am highly detailed. I think we both suffered. If coast guard did contact him, he might not want me contacting him! what if I had warranty problems? I would dread that. But, would I buy another inflatable from him or a frame? .... maybe. again, the challenge is that one cannot try out the product ahead of time.
Now the toon itself: I've never put it in its bag. Looks like a PITA to do so. It stays rolled up in corner of tying room when not in use. Of course one goes backward when one fins. That is just the way it is. It is much easier and faster to row backward as well. Rowing forward, if windy, one would get a somewhat wet bottom but that is about the only time unless you are sweating or... well, never mind! LOL. Rowing forward is slower. When drifting, esp if there is a current, the toon wants and will turn backward. That is annoying, esp when friends on river in their less expensive 2-tubed toons don't have to struggle to stay forwards. This, to me, is the largest drawback of this u-shaped design. Do I want to return the toon? No. The stock aluminum oars crossed over each other at the handles which I found v. annoying. If you don't like this set -up tell him and he said he could alter this. The carbon oars are nice and do speed rowing up. No regrets. The plastic hand grips spin & slip upwards so I think they need glue (?). Life goes on. I have a cloth seat and it has 2 stays for the back. for some reason, one stay has torn the seam in the upper part of the seat back & is popping out. toon is on its 3rd year, light use though, but 3rd year &there is that customer service concern. I think a shoe store would fix it. It takes about 8minutes to hand pump up the toon. Then add bags, oars, and all my goodies. 8 minutes on a hot, humid midwest day seems a long time. I'm looking into a pump that connects to car battery for power.. maybe one from Sea Eagle?? Maybe that is more than what I need and a $60 one from Gander would be fine.... The black bags are handy. Just know that they are not made for right and left hand sides. One cup holder will be forward & the other will be at the back. No biggie. What has been annoying for me & maybe I'm doing something wrong, is that the bags make contact with my hands or oars when I'm rowing. Plus, to get the oars up from their resting positons takes extra time d/t the same thing. This is troubling at times. They would not work for me sitting on the toon tubes themselves. Totally in way of oars. I have them sitting beside me and they still are in the way, esp the one on my right side. I loosen the velcro strap to shift bag backward but the seat limits this movement. Operator error? Are the d rings in the wrong spot? Does my seat position make a difference? I'm 5'7". The bags hold a lot. I do use a side pocket to hold my rod. Not perfect but I don't have a formal rod holder. It works. My pump takes up most of space in one bag but I can still get a fair amount of items in that bag. The toon is light and easy to pull up banks, minus cooler, etc. It really scoots on the water when I'm rowing. I absolutely love to fin with it and will do this more than anything & I do track well. If anyone could come up with a way to efficiently fin forward, I'd be in 7th heaven. I've banged into rocks with the toon and I've had to drag it some distances but I don't go crazy on rough surfaces. It is durable.
Summary, etc.
A friend of mine owns 2 Scadden framed toons. He bought them at least 6-8 yrs ago & I they were 10 yrs old then. I do believe Dave puts out a quality product. So, if you are patient with regard to the less-than-stellar customer service and can wait if items are on back-order (as you will likely learn this when you get a partial order), I'd recommend his watercraft. I knew of customer service ahead of time so was prepared, in a way, for things when they came up. If you can actually talk to the guy, he is a wealth of knowledge. BTW, his website says it takes 2 minutes to air up the Rampage, I believe, with a 12 volt (?) pump. I'm skeptical. I'd guess 5 minutes & I've read that one still needs to top off with hand pump. Uncertain of this. To unload from CRV and to completely set-up toon, don fins, & put rod together likely takes me about 30-40 minutes but I don't race through it. Website reports it is ok on Class IV water. It is good quality, but I wouldn't row it there. However, I wouldn't row anything there. Someone else would skipper that boat.
Sounds like a typical experience with Dave Scadden. Glad you went into the situation knowing what was going to happen. I feel sorry for those who have been screwed not knowing how scaddens typical customer service is.
 
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