Global climate and environment continued

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Kalm, Jan 21, 2005.

  1. Kalm Member

    Posts: 446
    Cheney, The Dry Side
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I know this is a bit long, but fairly provocative and worth the read. Even if you consider Bill Moyers as damaged goods I'd be curious to hear any reactions to his words (especially from my conservative and/or religious friends). Or debunk them if you would like. I think this is a nice extension of the climate and ideological threads of late.


    Published on Monday, December 6, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
    > On Receiving Harvard Medical School's Global Environment Citizen Award by Bill
    > Moyers on Wednesday, December 1, 2004, the Center for Health and the Global
    > Environment at Harvard Medical School presented its fourth annual Global
    > Environment Citizen Award to Bill Moyers. In presenting the award, Meryl
    > Streep, a member of the Center board, said, "Through resourceful, intrepid
    > reportage and perceptive voices from the forward edge of the debate, Moyers
    > has examined an environment under siege with the aim of engaging citizens."
    > Here is the text of his response to Ms. Streep's presentation of the award:
    >
    > I accept this award on
    > behalf of all the people behind the camera whom you never see. And for
    > all those scientists, advocates, activists, and just plain citizens
    > whose stories we have covered in reporting on how environmental change
    > affects our daily lives. We journalists are simply beachcombers on the
    > shores of other people's knowledge, other people's experience, and
    > other people's wisdom. We tell their stories.
    > The journalist who truly deserves this award is my friend, Bill
    > McKibben. He enjoys the most conspicuous place in my own pantheon of
    > journalistic heroes for his pioneer work in writing about the
    > environment. His bestseller The End of Nature carried on where Rachel
    > Carson's Silent Spring left off.
    > Writing in Mother Jones recently, Bill described how the problems we
    > journalists routinely cover - conventional, manageable programs like
    > budget shortfalls and pollution - may be about to convert to chaotic,
    > unpredictable, unmanageable situations. The most unmanageable of all,
    > he writes, could be the accelerating deterioration of the environment,
    > creating perils with huge momentum like the greenhouse effect that is
    > causing the melt of the arctic to release so much freshwater into the
    > North Atlantic that even the Pentagon is growing alarmed that a
    > weakening gulf stream could yield abrupt and overwhelming changes, the
    > kind of changes that could radically alter civilizations.
    > That's one challenge we journalists face - how to tell such a story
    > without coming across as Cassandras, without turning off the people we
    > most want to understand what's happening, who must act on what they
    > read and hear.
    > As difficult as it is, however, for journalists to fashion a readable
    > narrative for complex issues without depressing our readers and
    > viewers, there is an even harder challenge - to pierce the ideology
    > that governs official policy today. One of the biggest changes in
    > politics in my lifetime is that the delusional is no longer marginal.
    > It has come in from the fringe, to sit in the seat of power in the
    > oval office and in Congress. For the first time in our history,
    > ideology and theology hold a monopoly of power in Washington. Theology
    > asserts propositions that cannot be proven true; ideologues hold
    > stoutly to a world view despite being contradicted by what is
    > generally accepted as reality. When ideology and theology couple,
    > their offspring are not always bad but they are always blind. And
    > there is the danger: voters and politicians alike, oblivious to the
    > facts.
    > Remember James Watt, President Reagan's first Secretary of the
    > Interior? My favorite online environmental journal, the ever engaging
    > Grist, reminded us recently of how James Watt told the U.S. Congress
    > that protecting natural resources was unimportant in light of the
    > imminent return of Jesus Christ. In public testimony he said, 'after
    > the last tree is felled, Christ will come back.'
    > Beltway elites snickered. The press corps didn't know what he was
    > talking about. But James Watt was serious. So were his compatriots out
    > across the country. They are the people who believe the Bible is
    > literally true - one-third of the American electorate, if a recent
    > Gallup poll is accurate. In this past election several million good
    > and decent citizens went to the polls believing in the rapture index.
    > That's right - the rapture index. Google it and you will find that the
    > best-selling books in America today are the twelve volumes of the
    > left-behind series written by the Christian fundamentalist and
    > religious right warrior, Timothy LaHaye. These true believers
    > subscribe to a fantastical theology concocted in the 19th century by a
    > couple of immigrant preachers who took disparate passages from the
    > Bible and wove them into a narrative that has captivated the
    > imagination of millions of Americans.
    > Its outline is rather simple, if bizarre (the British writer George
    > Monbiot recently did a brilliant dissection of it and I am indebted to
    > him for adding to my own understanding): once Israel has occupied the
    > rest of its 'biblical lands,' legions of the anti-Christ will attack
    > it, triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. As the
    > Jews who have not been converted are burned, the messiah will return
    > for the rapture. True believers will be lifted out of their clothes
    > and transported to heaven, where, seated next to the right hand of
    > God, they will watch their political and religious opponents suffer
    > plagues of boils, sores, locusts, and frogs during the several years
    > of tribulation that follow.
    > I'm not making this up. Like Monbiot, I've read the literature. I've
    > reported on these people, following some of them from Texas to the
    > West Bank. They are sincere, serious, and polite as they tell you they
    > feel called to help bring the rapture on as fulfillment of biblical
    > prophecy. That's why they have declared solidarity with Israel and the
    > Jewish settlements and backed up their support with money and
    > volunteers. It's why the invasion of Iraq for them was a warm-up act,
    > predicted in the Book of Revelation where four angels 'which are bound
    > in the great river Euphrates will be released to slay the third part
    > of man.' A war with Islam in the Middle East is not something to be
    > feared but welcomed - an essential conflagration on the road to
    > redemption. The last time I Googled it, the rapture index stood at
    > 144-just one point below the critical threshold when the whole thing
    > will blow, the son of God will return, the righteous will enter
    > heaven, and sinners will be condemned to eternal hellfire.
    > So what does this mean for public policy and the environment? Go to
    > Grist to read a remarkable work of reporting by the journalist, Glenn
    > Scherer - 'the road to environmental apocalypse. Read it and you will
    > see how millions of Christian fundamentalists may believe that
    > environmental destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually
    > welcomed - even hastened - as a sign of the coming apocalypse.
    > As Grist makes clear, we're not talking about a handful of fringe
    > lawmakers who hold or are beholden to these beliefs. Nearly half the
    > U.S. Congress before the recent election - 231 legislators in total -
    > more since the election - are backed by the religious right.
    > Forty-five senators and 186 members of the 108th congress earned 80 to
    > 100 percent approval ratings from the three most influential Christian
    > right advocacy groups. They include Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist,
    > Assistant Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, Conference Chair Rick
    > Santorum of Pennsylvania, Policy Chair Jon Kyl of Arizona, House
    > Speaker Dennis Hastert, and Majority Whip Roy Blunt. The only Democrat
    > to score 100 percent with the Christian coalition was Senator Zell
    > Miller of Georgia, who recently quoted from the biblical book of Amos
    > on the senate floor: "the days will come, sayeth the Lord God, that i
    > will send a famine in the land.' He seemed to be relishing the
    > thought.
    > And why not? There's a constituency for it. A 2002 TIME/CNN poll found
    > that 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in the
    > Book of Revelation are going to come true. Nearly one-quarter think
    > the Bible predicted the 9/11 attacks. Drive across the country with
    > your radio tuned to the more than 1,600 Christian radio stations or in
    > the motel turn some of the 250 Christian TV stations and you can hear
    > some of this end-time gospel. And you will come to understand why
    > people under the spell of such potent prophecies cannot be expected,
    > as Grist puts it, "to worry about the environment. Why care about the
    > earth when the droughts, floods, famine and pestilence brought by
    > ecological collapse are signs of the apocalypse foretold in the Bible?
    > Why care about global climate change when you and yours will be
    > rescued in the rapture? And why care about converting from oil to
    > solar when the same God who performed the miracle of the loaves and
    > fishes can whip up a few billion barrels of light crude with a word?"
    > Because these people believe that until Christ does return, the lord
    > will provide. One of their texts is a high school history book,
    > America's Providential History. You'll find there these words: "the
    > secular or socialist has a limited resource mentality and views the
    > world as a pie.that needs to be cut up so everyone can get a piece.'
    > however, "[t]he Christian knows that the potential in God is unlimited
    > and that there is no shortage of resources in God's earth..while many
    > secularists view the world as overpopulated, Christians know that God
    > has made the earth sufficiently large with plenty of resources to
    > accommodate all of the people." No wonder Karl Rove goes around the
    > White House whistling that militant hymn, "Onward Christian Soldiers."
    > He turned out millions of the foot soldiers on November 2, including
    > many who have made the apocalypse a powerful driving force in modern
    > American politics.
    > I can see in the look on your faces just how had it is for the
    > journalist to report a story like this with any credibility. So let me
    > put it on a personal level. I myself don't know how to be in this
    > world without expecting a confident future and getting up every
    > morning to do what I can to bring it about. So I have always been an
    > optimist. Now, however, I think of my friend on Wall Street whom I
    > once asked: "What do you think of the market?" "I'm optimistic," he
    > answered. "Then why do you look so worried?" And he answered: "Because
    > I am not sure my optimism is justified."
    > I'm not, either. Once upon a time I agreed with Eric Chivian and the
    > Center for Health and the Global Environment that people will protect
    > the natural environment when they realize its importance to their
    > health and to the health and lives of their children. Now I am not so
    > sure. It's not that I don't want to believe that - it's just that I
    > read the news and connect the dots:
    >
    >
    > I read that the administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection
    > Agency has declared the election a mandate for President Bush on the
    > environment. This for an administration that wants to rewrite the
    > Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act and the Endangered Species Act
    > protecting rare plant and animal species and their habitats, as well
    > as the National Environmental Policy Act that requires the government
    > to judge beforehand if actions might damage natural resources.
    > That wants to relax pollution limits for ozone; eliminate vehicle
    > tailpipe inspections; and ease pollution standards for cars, sports
    > utility vehicles and diesel-powered big trucks and heavy equipment.
    > That wants a new international audit law to allow corporations to keep
    > certain information about environmental problems secret from the
    > public.
    > That wants to drop all its new-source review suits against polluting
    > coal-fired power plans and weaken consent decrees reached earlier with
    > coal companies.
    > That wants to open the arctic wildlife refuge to drilling and increase
    > drilling in Padre Island National Seashore, the longest stretch of
    > undeveloped barrier island in the world and the last great coastal
    > wild land in America.
    > I read the news just this week and learned how the Environmental
    > Protection Agency had planned to spend nine million dollars - $2
    > million of it from the administration's friends at the American
    > Chemistry Council
    > - to pay poor families to continue to use pesticides in their homes.
    > These pesticides have been linked to neurological damage in children, but
    > instead of ordering an end to their use, the government and the industry
    > were going to offer the families $970 each, as well as a camcorder and
    > children's clothing, to serve as guinea pigs for the study.
    > I read all this in the news.
    > I read the news just last night and learned that the administration's
    > friends at the international policy network, which is supported by
    > ExxonMobil and others of like mind, have issued a new report that
    > climate change is 'a myth, sea levels are not rising, scientists who
    > believe catastrophe is possible are 'an embarrassment.
    > I not only read the news but the fine print of the recent
    > appropriations bill passed by Congress, with the obscure (and obscene)
    > riders attached to it: a clause removing all endangered species
    > protections from pesticides; language prohibiting judicial review for
    > a forest in Oregon; a waiver of environmental review for grazing
    > permits on public lands; a rider pressed by developers to weaken
    > protection for crucial habitats in California.
    > I read all this and look up at the pictures on my desk, next to the
    > computer - pictures of my grandchildren: Henry, age 12; of Thomas, age
    > 10; of Nancy, 7; Jassie, 3; Sara Jane, nine months. I see the future
    > looking back at me from those photographs and I say, 'Father, forgive
    > us, for we know not what we do.' And then I am stopped short by the
    > thought: 'That's not right. We do know what we are doing. We are
    > stealing their future. Betraying their trust. Despoiling their world.'
    > And I ask myself: Why? Is it because we don't care? Because we are
    > greedy? Because we have lost our capacity for outrage, our ability to
    > sustain indignation at injustice?
    > What has happened to out moral imagination?
    > On the heath Lear asks Gloucester: 'How do you see the world?" And
    > Gloucester, who is blind, answers: "I see it feelingly.'"
    > I see it feelingly.
    > The news is not good these days. I can tell you, though, that as a
    > journalist, I know the news is never the end of the story. The news
    > can be the truth that sets us free - not only to feel but to fight for
    > the future we want. And the will to fight is the antidote to despair,
    > the cure for cynicism, and the answer to those faces looking back at
    > me from those photographs on my desk. What we need to match the
    > science of human health is what the ancient Israelites called 'hocma'
    > - the science of the heart...the capacity to see..to feel..and then to
    > act.as if the future depended on you.
    > Believe me, it does.
  2. Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

    Nice post Kalm, I was just about to post the same topic having read through some of the posts in the other forum on global warming. Today, on NPR's "Science Friday", there was a great conversation about science and God. I highly recommend it to anyone wanting to hear both sides of this debate.

    I've always found Bill Moyers to be highly intellectual and always appreciate his insight. He makes no secret about his contempt for GWB, and for that matter, neither do I. It truly is scrary to live in an age where science is taking a back seat to religion on matters such as global warming and the "prophecied and welcomed" end of the earth.

    One article that I read today was recently published in National Geographic. The topic was "Was Darwin Right"? The answer is emphatically "Yes". The religious right will say that evolution is just a theory, as though "theory" means that is is simply a random thought. A theory, however, is proven time and again by scientific means. Scientists have created a theory of electromagnetism, and we now have television and radio based upon that theory. Einstein came up with the theory of relativity, and although we have made some progress on his original ideas, we have scientifically proven them to be true. Likewise, there are still some who suggest that global warming is yet another "theory" with no basis. The people who think this way need to take a college chemistry class or two. There will always be those scientists who challenge whether or not smoking causes cancer I suppose.

    But back to the topic, we as a species are the greatest threat to our own existence. As Carl Sagan wrote ""Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves."

    A bumper sticker that I saw that I really enjoyed said this
    "Dear Lord, please protect me from your followers"...
  3. BOBLAWLESS New Member

    Posts: 2,879
    Port Ludlow, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Wow! What a speech! What a man! Thanks for givng me this Kalm; I am still booming you for president. I'm going to send some copies to friends and relatives. Absolutely astounding and very troublesome. How far will the religious right go, how much power will they build, what is their agenda for me? (I suppose they will hang me).

    My night is ruined. My life now takes on a new meaning. Thank God, I'm old. Indeed, I feel very sorry for the young to say nothing of all of the little creatures that will perish in coming months and years ahead.

    Bob, The,"We stood in a crowd in a burning house with fire closing in from all sides and someone said,'Good, this is good'."
  4. wet line New Member

    Posts: 2,313
    Burien, WA, King.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Kalm and Steve you may be shocked that I agree with what is being stated here. But then I am of a science type of personality and training which tends to be conservative.

    However I would broaden the scope of who is to blame. This degradation has been going on since the start of the industrial revolution and all sides have a share in the developements. To say the Republicans are soley responsible doesn't cut it. The Democrats have their share of exploitation too. In that legislation has to go through both the house and the senate it requires agrement at least in part by both sides and yet these bills keep getting pushed through and have for the last 100 years.

    Personally I think both parties are duping the public by pointing fingers and nay saying then doing what their favorite lobbyist want or to set themselves up in a lucrative possition after they get out of government. And this has been going on for a long time.

    As to global warming there are two sides, a naturally occuring event which has been well studied and can be documented with facts; and an event caused by green house gas emmisions which also can be documented with facts. In actuallity global warming is probably a combination of both natural and man made causes. Can we do anything about turning it around, maybe. But it is going to take some good science. As for the religious right and their prophesizing well I think they are off somewhere else. The Bible says that no man can predict when things are going to happen as written in the scriptures. And those that do so are charlatans.

    Yes, I am a conservative, probably more a conservative democrat than anything, and I do believe in a Supreme being, God. But I do not believe in organized, politically charged religions that base their power on using fear to subjegate their followers. Unfortunately fear is commonly used as a tool by people in power and this includes governments. Fear is a strong emotion and blinds people from reason. I could go on and on about the use of fear as a tool, from doctors, environmental groups, government, churches, schools and on and on. But my point I am trying to get to is that to combat fear it takes reasoning and allowing oneself to not be caught up totally in one doctrine. Look at as many sides as possible with an inquisitive mind and glean as much information as possible without buying into the emotional sides of an issue.

    Dave
  5. Kalm Member

    Posts: 446
    Cheney, The Dry Side
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    Dave, I have become accustomed to being shocked by you. Politically speaking, you are somewhat the conundrum and occasionaly inconsistent. But I mean that as a compliment - you know, the old line about hobgoblins and foolish conistencies. The abilitiy to see shades of grey and change one's mind might not bode well for leadership positions (see flip-flopper), but they do bode well for intelligent thought.

    I will disagree with you that those with "science type personalities and training" tend to be conservative. If you mean they tend to view matters more empirically than emotionally, then I agree. But the scope of this piece makes exactly the opposite case in that the current batch of conservatives in power rely more upon mysticism and spirituality on all matters - from waging war to environmental policy - than they do on logic and facts.
  6. wet line New Member

    Posts: 2,313
    Burien, WA, King.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Kalm you figured it out! I am conservative in that I like empirical data not fuzzy wuzzy or cutey pie gee whiz it feels good, emotional crap!

    Both parties have some good and bad ideas. I look to see what is being said, not promised and figure it out from there. I may not like who gets elected but I am not going to waste time beating a dead horse bitching about it. I would rather put my efforts to working on changes with who ever is in office.

    Now just to give you something to think about, who do you think are the best two politicians currently or recently this state has had? For my money they are, Norm Dicks and Jennifer Dunn.

    Dave
  7. David Holmes Formerly known as "capmblade"

    Posts: 590
    Snoqualmie, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +31 / 0
    Gentlemen,

    Moyer is a great guy. He's smart and intelligent and I am confident that he will soon realize, as more and more people are, that this entire global warming thing is little more than a huge hoax pulled off by the same people who brought you the following imagined crises:

    • Overpopulation -- oops now its underpopulation
    • The destruction of the rainforest
    • The rising sea-levels (actually they've dropped)
    • The killer african bees from Mexico -- remember that?
    • The destruction of the ozone layer

    That is just a sample off the top of my head about the scare tactics of the green movement. After being proven wrong again and again and again I don't understand why people even listen anymore. The sky is not falling.

    It is true that the climate is changing -- that isn't news: that's what climate does. It is true that it has been trending warmer since 1970, but it is also true that it the climate was cooling betweeen 1940 and 1970. In 1200 AD it was 3 degrees warmer on average than it is now. Millions of factors effect the climate -- why would anyone think that a single factor (say CO2 emissions in 2000) are going to have some lasting effect on the incredibly complicated chaotic system that is global weather?

    So who is to blame? Besides the greens and their holier-than-thou agenda, it is the press, who of course love a great disaster story. Take just about any natural event and it is spun into some sort calamity that we, in our wicked ways, must have caused. Recently a 100 mile iceberg detached from an ice shelf in the Antarctic. Polar scientests pointed out that this probably had nothing to do with 'global warming' since this happens ever year -- yet the less reputable newspapers threw in the phrase "some scientists believe it is related to global warming". You know they just threw that in there because it sounded right -- they probably don't even realize that it is summer in the the antarctic!

    Turn your climate-despair frown upside-down! The rest of the industrialized world were total suckers for signing the kyoto agreement and some of them are starting to realize it. Just months after signing on, Canada is trying to get out of it.

    There are other, real crises that are worthy of attention. Global warming isn't one of them.


    The weblog of Professor Emeritus Philip Stott says it so much more eloquently than I can.
  8. BOBLAWLESS New Member

    Posts: 2,879
    Port Ludlow, WA, USA.
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    Norm Dicks is my man, representing me in Washington, D.C.. He has done a lot for Jefferson County and I've never seen him on the wrong side of an issue I favored.

    For what it's worth, about 95% of professors who belong to the American Association of University Professore are Democrats. This must include many scientists as well as other intellectuals.

    To me , it's not so much the man I vote for as it is for his political beliefs.
    I want to know the issues and how he stands on them. Generally, but not always, I favor the principles of the Democratic Party and if a man is a good Democrat, then he usually has my vote. And exception was Lyndon Johnson. I could not vote for him because of his stand on the war. But he was one hell of a fine Democrat--more liberal legislation was passed during his tenure than under the leadership of any other president.

    But people were dying like flies in Vietnam. I could not be a party to that stupid war just as I cannot be sympathetic to this one. I do support our troops. I would like to see them all come home before anymore are killed.

    Bob, the What better way to support someone than to save their life. :thumb:
  9. Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

    Campblade,
    I'd love to hear you elaborate on the following and why you believe this is a hoax:

    Overpopulation -- oops now its underpopulation
    The destruction of the rainforest
    The rising sea-levels (actually they've dropped)
    The killer african bees from Mexico -- remember that?
    The destruction of the ozone layer
    Climate change

    Overpopulation? Yes, it's still a problem and grows bigger every day. The planet has the same, dwindling, resources and yet there are greater and greater consumption rates by humans. There is only so much that can go around and we're reaching the carrying capacity (some would argue that we've already exceeded it.)

    Underpopulation? No- that's not a problem when over 6 billion of us now reside on this planet and populations will likely double within the next 30 years or so.

    Destruction of the Rainforests: We're losing rainforests at an alarming rate and with them, many species. This is a huge loss. Rainforests serve to fix carbon dioxide among other things. Without trees/ plants, the green house gases will continue to rise.

    Rising sea levels - There are documented cases of houses in Hawaii that have now plunged under the sea because the sea levels have risen. When you start melting that much ice so rapidly, there are bound to be complications.

    Destruction of the Ozone: this is no myth, head to Australia and/or New Zealand. Ozone helps to block UVa and UVb rays. Without it, we're at high risk for skin cancer. Ozone gets depleated when oxygen molecules interact with CFC's, that's the reason they've been banned.

    Climate change: sure the climate changes but when we burn fossil fuels at the rate that we have for the past 100 years, it's going to have a huge affect. Why? Matter is neither created nor destroyed, it simply changes form. When you fill your car up with gasoline and burn it, it turns into a gas that has the same weight as it did when it was inside of your gas tank. Those gases, combined with other pollutants created by our industrial society, create huge problems for all of us air breathing, vertabrate animals. Extrapolate how much fossil fuels have been burned over the past 100 years and we're talking potentially billions of tons of polution that wasn't in the environment before 1900.

    Science is the one thing in life that makes some degree of sense. We have mathematics, chemistry, physics, to name a few, the foundations upon which you, and all matter, living and non-living exist. If you want to refute it, you'll need to do more than just make the statement that's is bunk.
  10. BOBLAWLESS New Member

    Posts: 2,879
    Port Ludlow, WA, USA.
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    Word, Steve.

    Bob, the iagree
  11. Teeg Stouffer Fish Recycler

    Posts: 683
    Omaha, NE / Council Bluffs, IA
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    Okay. I'll be a Christian voice that weighs in (but hopefully not the only one).

    Let me first be an apologist. In order to do so, let me tell you a little bit about me so you understand where I'm coming from.

    - I attend a relatively "Charistmatic" Christian church. For those whod don't know, at "Charismatic" churches some people will put their hands in the air during worship and prayer, we believe that miracles still happen every day and God speaks to us tangibly. Today in church, someone fell on the floor under the power of the Holy Spirit.

    - I believe in Evolution

    - I believe the Creation Story

    - I am so passionate about the presevation of our resources, particularly our fisheries, that I have spent the last three years developing a non-profit organization to do just that. (www.recycledfish.org) I believe that this is God's calling for me.

    - I am an evangelist. I have a passion to humbly share the good news of Jesus Christ.

    - I voted for John Kerry. I supported John Kerry's campaign with my dollars and time. I went to see Senator Kerry when he came to town. My wife worked on his campaign for our region.

    - I believe that every word of the bible is true and divinely inspired, given the proper interpretation.

    - I have gay friends in my intimate circle of friends, some are Christians.

    If you read this and say, "wow, this guy's a walking contradiction!" Then I want to suggest that you have been misled by what it means to be a Christian by media that oversimplifies virtually all matters in order to make it paletable to a broad audience. (To qualify that statement, you should also know that I spent 8 years working in the mainstream secular media.)

    Now if you'll entreat me to be an apologist to my faith as a whole for a moment, before moving on to the points in the article.

    - I can not apologize for the hurtful words and actions of individuals who have put an ugly face on Christianity. What I can do is to plead to you that you will know us not as a people bound by arbitrary rules, senseless acts, and rampant greed. Christians are humans. Some (and this is biblical) identify themselves as Christian but do not know Christ. Please know that to know Christ is to know Love. His glory and power are incomprehensible.

    - To build on that, please know that our God (your God, as he loves you and all people equally to me) is kind, generous, and giving. This is neither the time nor the place to develop that on the whole, but I want to make the point that my God needs no apology.

    - The Bible is very complex. It contains truths that are not visible without divine revelation. Its mysteries also become much clearer with the help of that revelation. Taken out of context, the Word can be (and often is) wrongly applied by people with good intentions. It can also be used to attack Christians by non-Christians who have equally taken it out of context.

    - Some view Christianity as a belief system. It is not that. It is a relationship with Jesus Christ. Whether they're getting it right or wrong, Christians are just people, flawed, imperfect, foolish, sometimes misled, sometimes greedy, sometimes EVERY negative human trait. (And sometimes they're great, just like everybody else.) Where this goes wrong is that sometimes in their infalliability, Christians become pretentious, or are viewed as such. All the more insensed we are (me too!) when we see Christians failing or doing something counter-productive on the whole. Please excuse us, we are only human.

    Now about the article itself.

    - Yes, many Christians believe that there will be Armageddon. However, I don't get too worried about all this. Many Christians around 1000 AD were sure that the end of that millenium would come then. Before that and since, every age has been able to point to "signs" that said that the end of the earth is here. Personally, I look around and can make a strong case that it's coming, that the "End Days" are upon us, but I don't worry about it at all. I think it's equally likely that the "End Days" are NOT here. It doesn't matter. I'm going to go on doing what's right in God's eyes until that day comes. I speak for many, many Christians when I assure you that most of us don't think there's anything we can do to "speed along" the end of the earth. It will come when it comes, if it comes at all (we might be reading His word wrong). There is nothing in the bible that tells us to "help out the process." I would like to suggest that this is widely people external to us applying that thought to us. However, within Christianity, there are some people who believe these are the final days, and they are "getting ready." I have no apology for them, I can only try to have patience and grace.

    - The Bible urges us to act as good stewards with what we have been given. I have no idea how many Christians can reconcile their personally justified actions with regard to that. However, I can say that the solution does not lie BEYOND the Christian church, any more than it lies within it. Think about these "kill the last steelhead" guys! They're out there on Sunday mornings, friends. There are just as many un-environmental jack-holes who are NOT Christians as who are, all "helping speed us toward the end," if you will. Making a case against any one group (Christians, African Americans, corporations, politicians) is silly, and not productive.

    - I understand that the writer is making the point that many government leaders purport themselves to be Christians. Since they are in a position of great power, they can do bad things and nobody can stop them. And since what they're doing is wrong, that's an injustice. I would ask you to weigh the other statements that I've made, and give a critical eye to this piece. Although it states many truths and I appreciate (and agree!) with the idea that our government is aiding in the raping of our natural resources, and that individuals are also to blame for letting it happen, developing a specific "someone to blame" is propaganda. I greatly dislike anti-Christian propaganda. (Here are some other words you coud substitute for "Christian" in the article, and it would still be pretty much true, and it would still seem to build a case against whatever word you subsituted: "White" "Male" "Affluent" "Heterosexual")

    I know this is long and wordy, thanks for your consideration.

    As always, I'm happy to talk one-on-one with anyone about individual matters of faith offline.

    Teeg.

    ps - Capmblade - what are you talking about? Steve - thanks for your well put response.
  12. David Holmes Formerly known as "capmblade"

    Posts: 590
    Snoqualmie, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +31 / 0
    Mr Buckner,

    that's not fair. You're asking me to cite sources for my facts yet you did not for yours. Well, I relish any opportunity to reverse the trend of misinformation so here goes.

    Before I begin, let me reassert that the climate is warming -- its just not us that is doing it. It's like saying the sun sets at night because we were sinful today.

    Overpopulation - I cite the United Nations. Everyone relies on their numbers for population estimates. Almost since they started doing population projections they have had to continually downwardly revise their numbers as fertility rates have dropped. The entire western world is now at below replacement rate. If it were not for immigration, there would be fewer and fewer Americans every day. In western europe the situation is almost at a crisis, with replacements at a mere 1.1 (instead of the 2.1 children required to keep a population stable). Without massive influxes of immigrants, every western european nation will be deserted before too long. As to the idea that there are 'fewer and fewer resources'... Technology that has always expanded yields or gotten better mpg. Farmers in India are clamoring for GE drug-resistant crops, but the hippies here won't let them have it.

    The destruction of the rainforest - But first, yes, it is being 'destroyed', but at a far slower rate than the greens would have you believe. The greens said it would be 42% deforested in 20 years. That number has been changed to 100 years. My sources? The Brazillian government, the Economist magazine, and Professor of biogeography Philip Stott of the University of London. "New research in Brazil suggests that around 87.5% of the previously mapped area of the Amazon remains largely intact and, of the 12.5% that has been deforested, one-third to one-half is fallow or in the process of regeneration," he said. Think about it -- it is the wettest place in the whole world. If you cut down the trees you aren't going to get grassland -- you will get a swamp, which you can't even build in! It will eventually become a rainforest again.

    Rising sea levels - I cite John Daly of the Greening Earth Society, who shows, in this great article, that its a wash. Houses under water have been shown to be localized distortions. The greens think the oceans are rising at the rate of 7 inches / 100 years. This article shows that is not true at all.

    The killer african bees from Mexico. I don't even need to go there do I?

    Ozone Depletion. This is a tricky one. CFCs are bad, bad stuff. That's why they are outlawed. However, Ozone is continually replenished by the very solar radiation that it protects us from. The seasonal ozone holes are replenished this way. Write-up by JunkScience using data from nasa.gov.

    This is the exact guilt that leads people to believe that they personally are responsible for climate change. Its irrational! Be true to the science that you admire and get away from the western hippy guilt!

    --capmblade, former environmentalist, now campaigner for reason
  13. alpinetrout Banned or Parked

    Posts: 3,879
    Hiding in your closet
    Ratings: +59 / 0
    Well said Steve. Also, thanks for not quoting some random blog site as your source of facts. Having spent some time under the ozone hole in southern Patagonia, I can vouch that it's a bad thing.

    Even if this whole thing was a big hoax dreamed up by some hippies with nothing better to do, who would want to breathe all that shit and have to look at brown haze all the time? Probably the same people who subsist on fast-food cheeseburgers, made amazingly affordable by grazing in former rainforest.
  14. David Holmes Formerly known as "capmblade"

    Posts: 590
    Snoqualmie, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +31 / 0
    Its a question directing your energies. If you are making sacrifices in the name of erroneous data you are a waste of space. In fact, you would be the one wasting resources. For example, if you were operating under the assumption that the earth is overpopulated (as Mr Buckner is), you might decide to do the right thing and not have more children. When actually what America needs is more people! Any sociologist will tell you that.

    Wouldn't you rather know the current facts? So that you could make the right decisions? So that you could rectify the wrongs that need to be righted? Wouldn't you rather try to understand the whole story?

    Or would it make more sense to buy into the latest chicken little, the-world-is-ending armaggeddon? If so, please point me at any predicted armaggeddon that actually happened Or refute the 5 that I posted.

    Or just be juvenile and make snide remarks.

    I should have known better -- no one wants to let go of the myths they were taught as children.

    I'll shut up now.
  15. Bright Rivers Member

    Posts: 513
    Bellevue, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Kalm, that is alarmist rhetoric at its worst. I expect that we will see a lot more of it in the next few years as the folks on the Left who are not accustomed to being powerless become more and more desperate. Desperate to convince just enough moderate Republicans that their party is run by cultish nutjobs. If you can’t win people over with actual ideas, there is always demagoguery!

    All across “red America” Christians are gathered in their living rooms, throwing End of the World parties, privately celebrating the felling of the last few trees for joy that it means Jesus is on His way. And you’re buying this? Lawless, of course. Skinny, maybe. But you, Kalm? I expected more of you.

    My church has 3,000 members and I know most of them. Yet somehow, I don’t know a single person whose faith or ideology remotely resembles that described by Mr. Moyer. This guy cited the popularity of a fictional end-time novel for evidence of how nutty Christians are. He’s citing fiction! That should tip you off that this guy has an axe to grind. I read Michael Crichton and Stephen King – I guess I’m in trouble if this Moyer fellow ever gets the chance to size me up!

    Y’know, the more that I think about it, the more I realize that Moyer has a valid point, except that it is the non-believers that we environmentalists should be fearful of. After all, Christians disagree amongst themselves regarding the proper interpretation of end time prophecy and what the role of planet earth will be in the kingdom of heaven. But non-religious scientists are unanimous in their conclusion that earth is doomed. That’s right, I’m sorry to break it to you, but the universe is expanding at an increasing rate, and all scientists agree that only one of two things can and will happen. The universe will either continue to expand until earth turns into a crystallized ice ball, or the universe will contract and implode on itself. Either way, earth is screwed and there is nothing the Sierra Club can do to stop it. So what’s the point? I think I’ll go kill a wild steelhead tomorrow.

    Sorry, it’s just those nutty scientists and their fatalistic ideology are starting to get to me. ;)
  16. BOBLAWLESS New Member

    Posts: 2,879
    Port Ludlow, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    BR, you are certainly a man of many facets--at times a gentleman at others a boor and a condescending, rather pompous ass. (I resented your "Lawless of course"). :mad:

    That your church is not what Moyer is describing means no more to me that the statement that, "while sand is brown ours is black so there is no brown sand."

    This end days business is starting to kick my butt. I mean, we , as a planet, have survived for about 4 billion years so I think the next few days or years are looking pretty favorable for survival. Most of this BS is from "Revelations" which according to many scholars could not have been written before the 9th century and so is very unlikely as to have anything to do with the teaching of Christ. I've always discounted it as medieval fear mongering. I'm not alone. I think the Catholic Church (500 million worldwide believers) reject Revelations as being part of the true bible. Many others as well. To learn, however, that the sky is falling or will fall and that governmental policy is sometimes based on those notions is appalling to me.

    Frankly the whole religious right (the gang that got you guys elected) has me very concerned. Previously viewed as just a bunch of harmless nuts, they seem to be orgainizing into powerful coalitions who hold some sway in government. Naturally, their right wing political fellow travelers (you) would never do anything but apologize for them. But for me, they scare the shit out of me. The 9th century coming back to haunt us all... Great, just great.

    Bob, the And damn, but I thought we were building a bridge to the future--guess we should watch out for what is coming up from behind. :hmmm:
  17. alpinetrout Banned or Parked

    Posts: 3,879
    Hiding in your closet
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    Please explain how more people are a good thing. Unless you just hate immigrants and don't want any room for them, I fail to see how this could help with anything.
  18. Zen Piscator Supporting wild steelhead, gravel to gravel.

    Posts: 3,076
    Missoula, MT
    Ratings: +12 / 0
    This is getting really scary. Why would america need more people? Do u think the enivomental damage our earth has sustained is not real? Just because you have not experienced the hole in the ozone layer doesnt mean its not real. I think sometimes relegion can be harmful to people, because it pulls the wool over their eyes in a sense. A belief and moral system that was instated 2000 years ago may not have practical applications in todays world. When you are lead by an idea or person, wether imaginary or not, it can limit your own thought and dicision making. Depending on how devoted you are to your given faith, the rules of your relegion can and does make dicisions for you. This is the reason i am not a member of any relegoin, i feel i can make my own choices, and dont need help to make dicisions that are important to me. Just because your faith has a certain ideal, doesn't mean it is always the correct and helpful one. I ask you to please think for youself, instead of letting someone do it for you. I think people will generally do the right thing, and not being inhibited by relegios rules and ideals can help you do the right thing.

    Peace,
    Andy
  19. Stephen Rice Senior Member

    Posts: 1,479
    Wasilla, Alaska
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Christain or not. I don't think just because we don't have all of the facts we should just go on polluting our world. Yeah maybe nothing will happen and then maybe it will. Are you willing to take that risk? just as you can't predict your god coming back you surely can't predict what tomorrow will bring. Better to err on the side of safety than just continue on with our destruction. :(
  20. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
    Ratings: +41 / 0
    Zen:

    "the rules of your relegion can and does make dicisions for you. This is the reason i am not a member of any relegoin, i feel i can make my own choices, and dont need help to make dicisions that are important to me. "

    OK, so you don't really understand what Christianity is all about. There's this concept of 'free will' you don't seem to grasp. Christians aren't robots or blind ignorant sheep as they are so often portrayed....


    " I ask you to please think for youself, instead of letting someone do it for you. "

    Uh, OK, so you think I should be like you :confused:
    Again, you are making a wrong assumption that Christians can't\don't think for themselves...



    Bob:

    "That your church is not what Moyer is describing means no more to me that the statement that..."

    Actually BR is right on. I've attended many different churches\denominations in my life and in different parts of the country. Moyer is a fear monger and you are his sheep...
    Is there some truth in what he says? Sure. But as BR pointed out, he doesn't bother getting his facts straight - but instead sensationalizes and exaggerates to get his audience riled up. "FEAR THE CHRISTIANS! They want to destroy the world!!" It would be laughable if so many were not subject to this attitude of lunacy.
    Did Moyers point out that Christians feel a very strong sense of duty to be good stewards of the earth? This guy just wants to further divide this country for his party\ideology - looking to cause a back lash against Christianity.


    "they scare the shit out of me. The 9th century coming back to haunt us all... Great, just great. "

    Hook, line, and sinker... This country is much less 'Christian' that it ever was - and yet you see it as getting 'worse'? Nothing but hype and lies.

    9th century?? LOL. Apparently you were not a history teacher ;)


    "…from "Revelations" which according to many scholars could not have been written before the 9th century"

    Have you been reading the 'Davinci Code' again :rofl: Which scholars would those be? I'm sure there are some, but not a majority...

    "... and so is very unlikely as to have anything to do with the teaching of Christ."

    Without turning this into a Bible study, it is clear you have never studied the Bible or you would have noticed that Revelations is only expanding on some specific things laid out in books spanning the OT and NT. If you doubt that, I can point you to the exact verses if you like...

    Again, I don't see anything good coming from this Moyer political fear mongering speech. It only serves to further divide this country. We need to work together if we are going to make ground the on the environment.