If you saw this sign....would you turn around??

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Vladimir Steblina, Feb 27, 2014.

  1. Peyton00 Active Member

    Posts: 710
    Puyallup, Wa.
    Ratings: +289 / 0
    If i had been there before, i would have never looked at the sign.
    If i knew where i was heading and had confirmed directions i wouldn't even slow down.
    If i was lost, i would pull a 180.
    If looking for a specific area and thought it was down that road, i would proceed.
  2. Keith Hixson Active Member

    Posts: 1,499
    College Place, Washington
    Ratings: +53 / 0
    I'd honor the sign until I knew if the sign was false or accurate. First time with no prior knowledge, I'd turn around.
  3. royalcoach Active Member

    Posts: 167
    White Mountains NH/Maine
    Ratings: +107 / 0
    That looks like a driveway in northern Nebraska no shit !:D
  4. Trapper Badovinac Author, Writer, Photographer

    Posts: 444
    Helena, Montana
    Ratings: +589 / 0
    Other folks have expressed my opinion -
    1. It's way too well maintained to be anything but a public road, but that's only a guess, not a fact.
    2. I'd check it out on maps, GPS, etc before I drove over that cattle guard.
    3. The sign doesn't mean crap unless it's backed up by a deed.
    4. What's likely is the road is public and the land is private.

    Trapper
    fredaevans and Tacoma Red like this.
  5. Old Man Just an Old Man

    Posts: 21,597
    Dillon, Mt
    Ratings: +1,652 / 0
    As a answer to the question. I would keep going. I see these all the time here in Montana. The road is open but the land along the road isn't.
  6. zen leecher aka bill w born to work, forced to fish

    Posts: 3,140
    Moses Lake, WA
    Ratings: +959 / 1

    The land's private on either side of the road but the road is public/or leased by the WDFW. I may have seen that sign on some of my travels.
  7. Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working

    Posts: 724
    Wenatchee, WA
    Ratings: +236 / 0
    Thanks for the honest replies.

    I have been a professional Forester for over 40 years. Thirty of those years were with public agencies.

    The one thing that really pissed me off were people posting public land as private. This steals recreational opportunities from the public, waste their time and efforts to use THEIR public lands, and it is a waste of taxpayer dollars removing these signs and dealing with illegal posters.

    According to my State Representative posting of no trespassing signs is considered trespassing. Most agencies just tear down the signs or write letters asking landowners to remove gates, etc.

    However, my first day on the job with BLM we ran into a substantial gate blocking a BLM owned road. The Forest Technician merely wrapped a chain around the gate and pulled it out with a winch and left a note saying this is a public road DO NOT GATE IT AGAIN!! That was cheap and effective use of taxpayer dollars. Unfortunately, that is the exception not the rule for dealing with private trespass on public land.

    As noted in your honest responses most of the public wants to do the right thing. Having people post illegal trespass signs breaks down the entire system of trust that this society is really based upon.

    The road in question is the mainline entrance road to the Seeps Wildlife Area. IT is public road, bordering private land.. Knowing where it is most of us would have driven through the sign. The road is too high a standard for a private road, however, that nice touch of wrapping the cattle guard with tires gives the impression of a rancher fix. IF I had encounter that sign in another situation without maps I might have stopped.

    However, IF it was your first time in the seeps.........70% of the fly fisherman would have turned around and 64% of the hikers would have done the same.

    On federal land all our signs stated "Forest Service land BEHIND this sign" or on COE lands "You are entering public lands" or "You are leaving public lands". With the sign again, facing the appropriate direction.

    Yesterday, I ran into a public that was stopped for wandering on unposted private land in the area by the game warden. That warden drove right pass that sign without a second glance!

    I talked to the State Representative about a new law raising penalties for posting of public land. However, I now think maybe the better solution is to update the existing law.

    For example, specify in law that the road and land must be posted with separate signs. Stating No Trespassing Private Land or No Trespassing Private Road or both where appropriate. I have seen MANY landowners use the posting of private land to CLOSE public roads by careful posting of their signs. Similar to the Seeps signs.

    The second would be the landowners name MUST be on the no trespassing sign. It must be the same name on the assessors records in the county. That would make it much easier to prove illegal trespass and save time and taxpayer dollars searching for the appropriate individual or firm.

    The third would be to use the Federal signing standards. That is the land behind the sign is closed. Just a few hundred feet up from this picture was a well signed no trespassing with two signs at 90 degrees from each other and the name of the ranch below the No Trespassing sign.

    The fourth would be on public land....in this case it would apply to DNR, a DFW, and other publically managed lands ONLY official signs with agency logo's can be posted restricting public use. No more hand lettered or signs posted by permit holders.

    Any thoughts on this proposal??
    jwg, fredaevans, Bill Aubrey and 3 others like this.
  8. GAT Active Member

    Posts: 3,990
    Willamette Valley, OR
    Ratings: +2,559 / 0
    Interesting. I made a post where I joked I had put up the signs to keep my favorite fishing places secure from other anglers but then I read that the sign is indeed bogus... so much for my joke... I deleted the post.

    Amazing that someone would try that. But on the other hand, it is certainly easy to buy signs and post them anywhere you don't want any fishing competition. There's a sign on The Siletz where I once fished for steelhead that now has a No Trespassing sign and I wonder if it is legit or not.

    I tried calling the county land office and they were of no help.

    How DO we know if a No Trespassing sign is on the up and up?
  9. Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    Posts: 2,557
    Quesnel, BC
    Ratings: +318 / 0
    What is on the other side? County maintained road? Is there a watershed at the bottom on the other side? Did I remember my fishing license? Do I have beer?
    Jason Rolfe likes this.
  10. Gary Thompson dirty dog

    Posts: 3,891
    East Wenatchee, WA
    Ratings: +131 / 0
    There is a lot of public land that is posted private.
    Know where you are going before you go. USGS maps
  11. Paul Huffman Lagging economic indicator

    Posts: 1,414
    Yakima, WA.
    Ratings: +130 / 0
  12. Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working

    Posts: 724
    Wenatchee, WA
    Ratings: +236 / 0
    USGS maps do not have land ownership.

    The problem with maps is they go out of date. Yesterday, I took my tablet along and used the state land base for ownership. I saw a parcel of "Bureau of Reclamation" managed land that had a three bedroom home on it!! So I am not sure about the current status of that parcel.

    When I worked for BLM we had 187 cases of occupancy trespass in the Silver Valley of Idaho. People were building 3000 sq.ft homes thinking they were on private land!!! That was a mess and half that required years of work and a special bill in Congress to clean it up.

    There are some apps coming out with assessor records in the database like Huffman mentions. However, they face the same issue of changing ownership.

    Any comments on the requirements for the posting of no trespassing signs??
    Paul Huffman likes this.
  13. Freestone Not to be confused with freestoneangler

    Posts: 2,337
    .
    Ratings: +1,172 / 0
    Vlad, if one places a sign in locations like this, the law should make them identify that while the property is private, the road is public.

    PRIVATE PROPERTY
    PUBLIC ROAD
    jwg, Ron McNeal and triploidjunkie like this.
  14. Trapper Badovinac Author, Writer, Photographer

    Posts: 444
    Helena, Montana
    Ratings: +589 / 0
    Knowingly trespassing on posted private property is against the law because it violates someone's legitimate property rights.
    Preventing the public from accessing their legitimate public property by using intimidation in the form of bogus signs should carry the same penalty as trespassing.

    I do think that with all the new technology and Cadastral mapping, there will be fewer conflicts because many people will simply call up a website like this one http://svc.mt.gov/msl/mtcadastral/ and shove it in the face of the faux owner and dare him to call the Sheriff.

    Trapper
  15. zen leecher aka bill w born to work, forced to fish

    Posts: 3,140
    Moses Lake, WA
    Ratings: +959 / 1
    I believe Campbell owns that land and a fair amount of other property in the area. I did see where the land around Pitt Lake shows a different owner now.
  16. Old Man Just an Old Man

    Posts: 21,597
    Dillon, Mt
    Ratings: +1,652 / 0
    Here in Montana, there are roads thru private property that are marked with the sign "Traveling through private, Please stay on the road". Some also have gates on them that state to close the gate behind yourself.

    But then you get these people from out of state that buy property here and they think they own it all lock stock and barrel. The river, the water, and the stream bed. I stay pretty well clear of places like that.
  17. Salmo_g Active Member

    Posts: 7,472
    Your City ,State
    Ratings: +1,613 / 0
    Regarding the original post, if I saw that sign while driving down the road, I'd keep going, assuming that it meant the land is private, but that the road is public. If I'm going to err, I'd rather err on the side of public right of way unless there are clear indications that the land or road isn't public. As far as I know, Texas is the only state where they shoot you for tresspassing. In Colorado they carry guns and point them at you, but don't actually pull the trigger, unless they're Texans who bought land in Colorado.

    I think the penalty for falsely posting public land or public R.O.W. should be at least double the penalty for tresspassing, since it's easy to trespass unintentionally. Can't say that posting public property is unintentional.

    Sg
  18. KerryS Ignored Member

    Posts: 6,701
    Sedro Woolley, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +1,744 / 0
    I have posted this before. I witnessed two highly regarded NW steelheaders (ok, one was a highly regarded NW steelheader) putting up no trespassing signs on public access areas of the Skagit and Sauk. Once I got over the shock I laugh my ass off.
    constructeur likes this.
  19. bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

    Posts: 2,262
    m-ville
    Ratings: +675 / 0
    Case in point the seapost road access on the north fork of the stilly. A Dnr road now gated because the private landowners got permission to close the access. Whos taxes built the bridge across the river & maintained the road all these years ? Why are only a select few now able to access the myrtle lake trailhead and fish their now private lake ? The same thing happened on the road leading to the fly only Ebby lake thus making it a private lake for a few select landowners and blocking off acres of state land for public hunting access.
    triploidjunkie likes this.
  20. freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Posts: 3,965
    Edgewood, WA
    Ratings: +706 / 1
    Ask myself the following questions of course,

    Does a sign being ripped away from its mounting make a noise if no one is watching?
    What is your personal distance record for sign flying?
    Is whatever is on the other side worth it?
    FLYFLICKER and Ron McNeal like this.