musings on the gun control issue

Discussion in 'Cast & Blast' started by Alex MacDonald, Jan 31, 2013.

  1. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    Blaming guns for shootings is akin to blaming pencils for misspelled words. How about we start holding people accountable for their actions and quit looking for reasons not too. As for the suicide argument, that is yet another tactic of the anti-gunners. Take guns away and those intent on the act can use a car and a length of pool hose.

    Certainly having family, friends and/or medical consultants attempt to remove access to weapons for those in a bad state of mind makes sense... but that does not/should not require legislation... just people taking care of people.
     
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  2. speyfisher

    speyfisher Active Member

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    "Having firearms in the home results in more deaths by/from/to family members" What a crock-o-shit! Giving a kid a hi powered muscle car has resulted in more deaths than firearms in the home. But you won't see any statistics on that from the media or the politicians! They just keep pumping out the same old crap over & over. Truth has nothing to do with it. Repeat a lie often enough and it is taken for the truth. I, for one, am not buying into it.
     
  3. psycho

    psycho Active Member

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    Up here in the great frozen north it costs me $8.75 per year for $2,000,000 coverage to insure all my firearms through an insurance company affiliated with National Firearms Association of which I am a member. I wish that I could insure all my motor vehicles for the same rate, that low rate tells me that my firearms are way less of a danger to the public than my motor vehicles.:D
     
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  4. wadin' boot

    wadin' boot Donny, you're out of your element...

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    Alex, ditto on the decent smart guy compliment (that and we both share a love of medieval history, Scots blood, and your sense of humor is top notch). But you haven't swayed me one bit with talk of rights. Let's start with Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Number one right there is Life. give me my liberty to peacefully assemble in my pursuit of my life's happiness...

    You're damn right I want competency testing. Alternatively, why aren't you up in arms (sic) that we have liability, insurance and competency issues on driving but not for gun ownership? The right to drive is a test of competency that I doubt any of y'all have a problem with and is certainly no slippery slope to the days of the Klan as intimated.(Incidentally did you see Django Unchained, the Klan scenes are memorable...) Longstanding patterns of driving deaths down...and gun deaths up. gun deaths now higher than driving deaths in Washington state.... Does liability, insurance, policing, licensure, safety standards, and technological advances have anything to do with those differences? Absofuckinglutely. Could they do the same for gun violence? Absofuckinglutely.

    What are your proposals? Where's your head? In the sand with me (yeah I'll give you some credit there, but believe me, I am not cowed or dumb enough to think there is no better way to deal with this than what we got) or in cement, ossified with fear that someone might actually demand something ie competency and leadership from gunowners? I don't want to pay for a gunowner's hobby and damages that come from it. How is that your civil right that I have to fund the disability and loss of productivity from gun deaths and gun violence perpetrated disproportionately by your armed gunowning brothers and sisters? That's BS Alex and you know it. You all already pay to medically float your gun induced damages from other incompetent gun owners...why are gunowners OK with that? If the government freaks you out then figure out another way, maybe militias- oh yeah- militias, well regulated ones, that's part of the second amendment too, where are they in this debate?

    Does Jesse Jackson Jr's ludicrous fur hat really bother you more than men and women veterans returning to the US and killing themselves? Correct me if I am wrong but you swore to serve and uphold the well being of your fellow servicemen. When they get home and take that gun out and shoot themselves do you still feel we can afford to lose a few brothers who served, that you did your end to take whatever means necessary to keep them sane and levelled, to bring them proverbially home? Saying you don't care about losing a few service brothers- let alone kids- who want to kill themselves is bullshit and you know it Alex. Look at Upton's post above (you too FreestoneAngler), see how goddamn hard it is to help, how easy it is in comparison to sit and do nothing.

    Folks hold me liable for my actions, I take competency tests for what I do, I have to recertify for my license and I'm insured to cover my ass if I screw someone over. That's part of my contract to society. But here's the thing Alex, I am not satisfied with the status quo in what I do or what I can offer, I hunt to provide better, safer service. Why? Because that's part of my professional obligation to keep people healthy and well, and to push for changes that help people stay well. Do no harm. I get a kick out of it, I trained for it, I train others to think similarly. So yeah, there's a fundamental difference between you and me, I do give a crap if people kill themselves, because it means guys like me missed clues and obvious patterns and didn't see what was coming and worst of all didn't step up and intervene. So yeah, maybe they'll kill themselves (and their girlfriend and her kids anyways), the thing is if my head is in the sand, I can still pull it out and look around and see the problem for what it is, a very expensive public health issue that you and everyone else reading is already paying for. A public health issue that begins, disproportionally, at the feet of gunowners.

    Pax et Lux...
     
  5. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    So Boot, let me ask what your position on drunk driving is. How about cigarettes? How about drugs? How about booze in general? There's always obesity too. I suspect none of those are quite as visceral as a gun, yet tens of thousands of people die from them every day. Are they any less dead than someone with a bullet in them? What are you going to do about those issues, where is the hew and cry about them? Do you think for a nano-second there's no cost to all of us on these issues.

    Look what happened when they banned booze. How's that drug war going? Senate hearings on the cigarette makers did zip... Last time I checked people are still being killed by cars, every frikin' day...little kids too. Where's the demand for that to change? Irresponsible people make stupid, often fatal moves every day. Why should responsible people pay for their screwups?

    Your comment about service member suicides...maybe if we'd stay the hell out of everyone else's business and stop the war machine that's been running since WW2 it wouldn't be an issue. Would it? Oh, BTW where's the bitch about all the arms that the US sells to any Tom, Dick, or Harry country? Do you think for a moment that innocent lives aren't lost? Thousands of them...probably tens of thousands. But we have to control those "assault weapons" at home. Two faced BS if you ask me.

    These are all examples of public health issues that that at the feet of everyone. I don't know what the hell Pax et Lux means, but back at you.

    By the way, none of the above have Constitutional protection, so it should be a walk in the park to "control" them. So, what are your proposals? Or are you just interested in "controlling" guns here at home from all us "gun nuts"?

    I know I won't change your or any other persons mind on the gun issue, but I just have to call BS when I smell it. Or are you just myopic?

    I gotta go clean my SXS so my wife can go shoot it off the balcony like Uncle Joe Biden says we should....
     
  6. psycho

    psycho Active Member

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    Oh I forgot to mention that $8.75 policy covers anyone that I let use one of my firearms. It covers hunting, range, plinking, travel.:D I did not have to have any competency testing either. I don't have to have any such tests for my vehicle insurance either.
     
  7. Alex MacDonald

    Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

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    Wow, Boot! First, you should be aware there's no "right" to drive; it's a privilege; That's precisely why it can be removed. The actual right to possess a weapon has to be restored by a judge after one's sentence has been met. No such problem with driving (and no, I didn't see this movie, sorry: too busy skiing hard!). My proposals in a bit here.

    Second, what makes you think gun owners are incompetent idiots? What? This from the "hate is not a family value" party? My firearms haven't killed anybody (yet) and won't unless it's justified, and I'm the one pulling the trigger. I was forced to use my firearms five fucking times to defend my home and property while living in Sacramento. I never fired a shot then, but wouldn't hesitate, either. And yes, I know what it's like to kill. As far as the militia is concerned, google 10 USC ยง 311. We're right in the middle of the debate.

    Why do you think you should have to pay for other peoples' indescretions. Why is it you have to pay the medical bills for people who refuse to wear a motorcycle helmet? Who smoke? Did you decide you should have to pay for this? Let the fuckers die if they make stupid choices (and I smoke the occasional cigar!). Human's aren't an endangered species: we can stand to lose a few and it won't make things worse. And Jesse Jerkoff's hat doesn't bother me so much as the fact that he stole campaign funds from people to do it.

    None of us swore to uphold anyone's wellbeing. The correct phrase is "...support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign AND domestic...". Does it bother me that these guys are offing themselves? Partly yes, but wonder what prompts them to do this? Why did my generation's returning servicemen NOT do this? For better or worse, I tend to look at the current generation of kiddies as pussies. Have a little problem and they fall apart. Seems young people are unable to deal with the shit life dishes out!

    Society also holds me liable for my actions. What do you think will happen if I plow my car into somebody if I were drunk? I have liability insurance for my vehicles, and my boats just like everybody else. No difference here with inappropriate discharge of a firearm: your ass will get reamed!

    I'm gratified that your path chose you to be a healer. And I'd hold you up as a fine example of that profession. I chose a different path, and one not without empathy, either. Even after 40 years, I still weep for the Hmong, or the Montagnards, brave and wonderful people I fought alongside, and I grieve that I couldn't do more. I learned, in that hot, wet jungle, what it means to be absolutely ruthless; to show no quarter whatsoever in an effort to bring as many of them back to their families as was humanly possible. I know-intimately-what it's like to make friends in a little hamlet while on patrol, only to come back through the place to find every living thing exterminated by a government gone rogue-the North Vietnamese. Given that backdrop, I'll put forth my proposals for ending this. And yes, it does bother me, but not as much as hearing how I need to turn in my weapons (reference the above village scene-four separate times).

    First, gang-bangers can kill each other anytime they want, with no punishment. If they fuck up and take out a decent person, the entire gang's impaled (see Vlad Tepes, or Vlad the Impaler for reference here). Second, eliminate gun-free zones. They only advertise where it's safe to go whack people. Third, prosecute fully all falsification on the dealer-record-of-sale form, which is why the NRA is against "universal background checks"; no government entity gives a shit about enforcing that little "lie and you go to jail" sentence on the form Why bother? Put the fuckers in prison, period. Fourth, for any crime of violence-not just firearms violence-NO PLEA BARGAIN. No dealing, no trading info for a lesser crime, no nothing. Once the perp's found guilty, string the fucker up. Have a three-judge panel review the proceedings, and if they support the verdict, march him out and stretch him, and send the family the bill. Everybody KNEW this little shit who killed the elementary school kids was scary-nuts. They KNEW, and they stuck their thumbs up their collective ass. Better yet, prosecute them as well, as accessories.

    People whine about this being too harsh. Will it work? Probably, One thing's for sure, trying to "understand" killers sure as shit isn't. Remember the village I mentioned? They had no weapons other than some farming implements. Little girls who I'd given chocolate bars to a few days before, who now had no face. Their government felt they had no right to own weapons, and another government murdered them. People want my guns, they'd better be prepared to die to get them, cause that's exactly what will happen. They'll find taking on a former SEAL is a little different from shooting a child.

    Shit. I wish I hadn't opened up that can of nasty. It's going to take a few cognacs to put it back on the shelf...

    I completely disagree with your claim that this begins at the feet of the gunowners. Give me a break! It should be laid squarely at the feet of the MURDERERS.
     
  8. Josh Smestad

    Josh Smestad aka Mtnwkr

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    Driving isn't a right. Our country's Constitution says nothing of driving. It does however give me the right to keep and bear arms, and I'll do what ever I can to protect that right.
    The Countries and States that have the strictest gun laws also have the highest violent crime rates. Why can't anyone put two and two together?
     
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  9. Upton O

    Upton O Blind hog fisherman

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    Point of interest, the Constitution confirms God given rights, not government given rights. I really heard that for the first time the other day, the second ammendment just clarifies it.
     
  10. ribka

    ribka Active Member

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    We all know the road to hell is paved with what?

    Start enforcing current firearms laws would be a great start.A good deal of firearms related crimes are committed by those out on low or no bond or released from prison early. Firearms charges are often dropped by prosecutors during the plea bargain process.

    man can giveth and man can take away based upon his capricious wants and desires. A God given right is an absolute right and that is what is so disconcerting to the statists who believe all of humankind's ills can be solved by a Beaurocrat or a politician pimping for votes.

     
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  11. Upton O

    Upton O Blind hog fisherman

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    There it is.
     
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  12. wadin' boot

    wadin' boot Donny, you're out of your element...

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    Pax et lux means peace and light.

    Roper - Domestic gun issues is where we differ. We're not different in how you and I feel on just about every issue you mention, including wars overseas and weapons missing.

    Drunk Driving- Against it. What am I going to do about it- same stuff I always do, educate people. Oh and pay my taxes so that it is hopefully prevented, enforced and punished. Teach my kid that driving drunk is one of the dumbest and most dangerous things he can do.

    Kids getting killed by cars- Against it, isn't everyone? Like I said before, road fatalities are on the decline, gun fatalities on the incline. There's no dichotomy there, just because I'm in favor of gun owners taking more share of the costs they incur, doesn't mean I don't care about road fatalaties.

    Cigarettes- Against their use. What am I going to do about it- same stuff I always do, educate people. Oh and pay my taxes so all those cigarette smokers get the help their smoking caused- like heart disease, strokes and cancer (I'd far prefer to pay to see them quit and am perfectly happy to see heavy taxes on cigarette use so smokers bear their own costs, I am also completely OK with tobacco companies being held liable for selling dangerous products when they knew their product was dangerous.) (I'm also completely for research into positive effects of nicotine on the elderly, the demented, patients with epilepsy and sleep apnea. There's a hell of a lot of interesting stuff in smoke that if you can get away from the tars and monoxides and heavy metals- may have some big impacts in a whole bunch of things)

    Booze- No problem if of age. Booze taxes so they can help enforce laws on drunk driving and education, I don't have a problem with those at all. Plus prohibition, when it was a constitutional amendement, didn't work and was repealed. There used to be a constitutional right to not drink. Now there is no constitutional right to drink. Hmm what to make of our rights...

    Right to peacefully assemble- for it. What am I going to do about it? Point our constitutional right doesn't cost in disability, productivity lost, or health care costs.

    Obesity- do my best to help people get their weight in order.

    Guns- there's a right to bear arms. I understand that. Just as I understand there is no constitutional right to education, food, health care, to drive, to drink, to hunt or to fish. But if the victims of gun violence are disproportionately gunowners and their families what am I going to do about that? Point that fact out, again and again. Illustrate that fact has a massive public health cost. Show that all of us pay for it. Suggest that the cost burden there should fall more on those who choose to put themselves and their families at risk.

    I know you are completely responsible and sane people. Just as you know there are completely irresponsible people in your ranks and within mine. But why should I pay for your risk, however small? I already do, you already do, and I will continute to do so, just as I do for cigarettes, booze etc. But I am sure as hell not happy about paying the same share of gun violence public health costs as a gunowner does.

    If your point is to suggest all risk taking needs accountability, absolutely. Do we need effective ways to change behaviors that are risky? Absolutely. What's the one way that works better than others? Pocketbook + education + enforcement. Does that lead us to a nation of wussbags? Maybe, maybe not. Is a non smoker a wuss? A teetotolar a wuss? Is a gunowner more of a man than one without? Of course not. Monetize your risk, determine competency, enforce it, pay to play, so I don't have to pay (as much) for a gunowner's hobby and its health consequences. You can sure as hell be pissed at me for pointing that out, why you'd be pissed about it is for you to figure out.
     
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  13. speyfisher

    speyfisher Active Member

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    You just heard that for the first time the other day? Where were you when that was taught in 6th grade history? Maybe one of the reasons the progressives have such a problem with God given rights vs. government allowed privileges, is rather than accepting God (the Holy Bible was written by a bunch of male chauvinist pigs a couple thousand years ago,,,,,right) they prefer to cling to the Darwin theory that their ancestors washed up on the beach as a blob of snot. :rolleyes: Well,,,,maybe theirs did. But mine certainly did not!
     
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  14. Upton O

    Upton O Blind hog fisherman

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    When the student is ready, the teacher shall appear.
     
  15. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    Boot, I guess what I'm trying to say is this whole gun control issue has been whipped up by the media and the politicians. It sells a lot of advertising and is good for campaigning. Meanwhile there are other issues that are completely ignored by everyone. Issues just as costly in lives and dollars. Nobody is giving these issues any coverage, they just don't have the same "sex appeal" as the gun issue. I see our nation losing it's mind every day. Most folks are happy watching TV or playing with their smart phones (one wonders what the hell is so smart about them). They're all living in La-La Land as far as I'm concerned and probably won't wake up until the shit really hit's the fan. By then it will be too late for most folks.

    I for one will not give up my right to own any gun I want. Nor will I give up my right to use one as I see fit to protect myself and my family. As long as you're not kicking in my front door in or car-jacking me, I'm no threat to anyone.

    Via con Dios, Amigo...
     
  16. Jim Ficklin

    Jim Ficklin Genuine Montana Fossil

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    I can't add to what Roper, Alex, Ribka, et al have said. MY guns have cost no one else anything; in fact, they have saved myself & others from harm. Fact is, you can't legislate or implement via purchase (read "tax") ethics or morality. Until such time people realize that perpetrators of heinous crimes, no matter what mechanism of destruction they choose to employ and do not conform to ANY laws including God's laws, such atrocities will continue. The root cause is NOT firearms owned & used by honest, responsible, law-abiding citizens. Thus, regulating/punishing honest gun owners does NOTHING to those who would perpetrate acts of violence. Such actions would, however make it much less-risky for said vermin to prey more-widely on their chosen victims. Boot, I sincerely commend you for your passion to heal/improve the health of others. I will also continue to defend my Second Amendment rights. Peace and light . . .
     
  17. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    Based on Boot's responses, it seems pretty clear to me that he is not a ardent supporter of the second amendment. Not surprising though is his support for his first amendment right. I don't recall what the final body count, number of serious injuries, and rapes "March on Wall Street" (and many major cities) ended up with, but that certainly cost all of us some significant $$...not to mention costs of picking up all the trash, fecal matter and damage to personal property. Yeah, I was proud to say looky here everyone...this is America (w/o a frigging peep from Barry). Words and speech can have negative consequences and result in cost.

    You know, I think it may be high time to begin re-writing and reigning in on all of our constitutional rights... and, we'll have a serious look at the 2nd amendment right after we get done with the 1st amendment... might as well work them in numerical order... that OK with you Boot?
     
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  18. wadin' boot

    wadin' boot Donny, you're out of your element...

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    Jim- I'm not proposing morality or ethics legislation, I know that goes nowhere. I'm proposing equitable cost sharing. Yeah I get that no one on this board is about to go out and commit a crime. Your kid, your grandkid, your parent, your spouse MAY see that gun as the fastest way out. Why do I say that? 19,000 suicides by gun, 2008. 20,000 in 2010. A little over two out of three gun deaths nationwide are from suicide. You got a gun? you got family around that gun? you got family with depression? You got family who lost their faith? You got a son who just broke up with his girl? You got a black sheep in your family? You got someone with impulse control issues? you got someone with anger issues? With a drinking problem? A family member who makes poor decisions the more demented they get? You got that under your roof, then you got risk. (Show me a family without those issues- I don't pretend to have one)
     
  19. Upton O

    Upton O Blind hog fisherman

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    Then we need to legislate locking up booze, knives, baseball bats, cigarettes...

    It is personal responsibility for parents/family/friends to insure those folks they love who are not mentally intact or are blacksheep or whatever, don't have access to the firearms and to notify the LE about their circumstances. This was NOT done with the individual who killed four people in a coffee shop, a lady downtown Seattle, and then himself. The family knew he was nuts, knew he had firearms and didn't notify the cops. They didn't want him to get into trouble.

    And let's talk about the Sandy Hook killer, what parent in their right mind takes their mentally ill/personality disordered, brain injured kid to a shooting range to teach him how to use an assault rifle and handguns? And when the kid grows to a man (20 years old) and is getting unmanageable, why was he still allowed access to these firearms? Absolutely stupid. You cannot legislate against stupidity.
     
  20. wadin' boot

    wadin' boot Donny, you're out of your element...

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    FreestoneAngler- You bring up an interesting point, which amendment is more important to you, and you got me pegged right, I'd choose first over second amendment any day. Chances are we wouldn't be having a discussion about this without the first amendment. How about you?

    I'd be a liar if I didn't chuckle a little when the Occupy Wall Streeters were cleared out of their camps. I'd also be a liar if I didn't think their bitching had some grains of truth to it.

    I also cheered for the Patriot Gang Motorcycle riders showing up to disrupt the most obnoxious 1st amendmenters- The Westboro Baptist Church- that ever was.

    Upton you sure can legislate against stupidity, it's done all the time. Cigarette taxes do that. Kids attend schools because of legislations against stupidity.

    And yeah you got no argument with me re the Sandy Hook shooter, or families stepping up and taking responsibility, I'm in complete agreement with you.
     

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