Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Peter Pancho, Mar 12, 2009.
Ah yes, Bear Spray. Ever sprayed it into the wind?
Yes I have:rofl::rofl::rofl:
Just like peeing in the wind:rofl::rofl::rofl:
I've had a shouting match with a standing brownie in Katmai at 70 feet. Does that count?
Honestly, there weren't other options as I was alone and nowhere to run. My 45 would have pissed himoff and I've watched them run up a 45 degree scree slope at 20 MPH.
Some interesting reading but a bit on the morbid side. Not many fishermen on the list. Either we have more bear smarts than other outdoor groups or we are luckier.
glad it went the other way david. you obviously now have a sense of speed over ground, amazing, eh? the reason the 12 ga is favored is what you attempting to do is break bone. shoulder is usually the first target, from any angle, if they hit the dirt, you will win the contest. your 45 would have been totally worthless along with any other handgun folks would bring along. if you choose to fish with the bears again, just keep the 'buddy rule' front and center along with the 12 ga. along with time, i lost my nvincibility so i don't fish up there anymore.
No, those are my credentials on pistol shooting. Sorry, I understand your type. Somebody wants to know (me) why you are concealed carrying while flyfishing. If the threat was genuine and any of us NEEDED to carry a handgun where we flyfish and if we had any genuine training (which is very questionable with you) we would use a high capacity semi automatic gun with good knock down power and the ability to carry extra mags. You would wear it in the open in a tac holster so you can actually get to the weapon (that you need for you own safety in those drug infested, bear having, meth lab Washington woods.) Of course to continue to flyfish in an area like that if it did exist (which does not exist but in your tactical minds) means you are really looking to engage someone in a firefight. And more importantly wearing your handgun in the open means you would have to answer questions about why you are carrying it flyfishing. Of course you would feel very stupid and childish when folks like me laughed in your face as you walked by showing all of us flyfisherman you are ready for battle, and if you wanted shit from us, you'd squeeze our heads! I'd love to walk up to you and ask you "Why are you wearing a pistol in Buck Island?" If i could keep from laughing out loud. So since you don't have the courage to show your weapon in the open I asked "Why concealed"? You're a big time tactical ISPC guy, now how about a tactical debate? Carry a concealed weapon in your waders is tactically unsound, common sense unsound and gives you no advantage. In fact it is a liability unless you really know what you are doing and more importantly can identify the threat in plenty of time, something that is unlikely while "flyfishing." In fact the law of averages says you are most likey going to end up in a hand to hand struggle with the bad guy who if it is me is going to take your gun from you. So you are carrying the gun just to carry a gun. WHILE FLYFISHING. I have a news flash great one. The two do not go well together. Now, call me a bully, say whatever you want. But neither you nor anybody else who carries "HEAT" (little boy talk) while they flyfish can justify it, and expecially when they don't what the hell they are doing with the gun in the first place. You at least have run around and pretended you know what you are doing (Steel Targets don't shoot back) but you have come completely unglued when confronted with a sincere debate about how, why and where. We have a complete right to know which one of you are walking aound public waters with loaded weapons. It's absurd. You immediately resorted to childish name calling and an very insecure rant questioning my credentials. I would love to send you a copy of my DD-214 and you can still find copies of the TV show I am sure. But one thing is for sure..... You are just another complete illustration of why a complete hot head with anger and insecurity issues and a propensity to escalate any verbal exchange does NOT need to be walking around with a loaded pistol in your waders. Lastly, I bet if we took a survey, 90-95% of all anglers do not like the idea of a bunch of guys carrying loaded weapons under their waders. Kind of sad actually.
PS And Peter, if you must carry a loaded pistol in your waders look to Galco. They have always had a good concept of combat holsters. Gunsite carries them another school "I never attended". They make pretty good holsters for tac use or all kinds. Thought you'd like to know that. Coach
PSS Steely Dan was named after a woman's vibrator. Just thought you'd like to know that.
Yes, watching a bear (a different occasion in the same area) run straight up a scree slope the better part of a mile, as fast as you can drive a car, without slowing down, sharp soccer ball sized boulders flying behind, flat out "truckin", teaches respect. In this instance we were traveling along shore in a whaler and this guy felt threatened with nowhere to go but up. An amazing display of power. You're not going to out run one so the CW was then, roll up into a ball because they go for the stomach first.
Finally, another "I love me" post. I was getting worried that this thread might finally die.
I never liked the idea of playing dead. I am aware that it is a recomended tactic when getting mulled, but I would prefer to run. I guess the way I view it is that either way the bear is going to mual me. I there was a tree close by, I would try to get up the tree first. I know the bear is a better climber than I am, but it's like I said, I just ain't too fond of just laying there getting mulled.
Sure, for picking off the strike indicators/bobbers of those folks who low-hole me. Clears out the run reallly quickly. :thumb:
Well now that we know Steely Dan is a tough guy with a gun in his pants, and we have given Peter holster advice, and we also now know that most of you gun toters have put no thought process into they and where you carry a loaded weapon while flyfishing the 2 Million dollar question:
UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES DO YOU REACH FOR AND PULL OUT THE LOADED PISTOL YOU ARE WEARING UNDER YOU WADERS WHILE FLYFISHIING? (sounds kind of silly doesn't it?)
Go ahead say when you feel threatened. That is far too ambiguious. Once it comes out, there's no going back.
And just to re-iterate: Steely Dan was named after a woman's vibrator.
We have a complete right to know which one of you are walking aound public waters with loaded weapons.
Sorry Coach you don't.
And Galco is shit, they're manufacturing process allows for the holsters to gradually lose their shape. For leather stick to Milt Sparks, Lou Alessi or Matt del Fatti, all top of the line holster makers. For kydex stick with Blade-Tech, costs a bit more than Fobus & Uncle Mikes but you'll be happy with your choice.
Ahhhhhh the anger of being having to actually show some sort of competence, good reason and good intentions of carrying around a loaded weapon in your pants. You are one of those guys who fought the backround check aren't you? Keep it coming gun carrying while flyfishing dudes, it's getting good. So Mike T, we know you are bit testy about letting others know you are packing that weapon of steel and fire under what circumstances do you pull it out WHILE FLYFISHING? That was the question. Simple it seems.
And Galco was good enough to be used by Tier 1 Assets (you know all about Damneck and Bragg right Mike T?) who believe it or not know more about holsters and whose usage of is about 5000 times (on an average day) the tempo yours will ever be and to them is a direct life support system.
PS Steely Dan and me buried the hatchet. Once the BS was sifted through we both realized that the one common ground we both have is that you had better be well trained, and know that your ROEs have both been well thought out and rehearsed before you ever strap that concealed pistol on. If not yes to all of the above all you have done is put everyone in danger around you.
I like Kramer (Tacoma) for leather.
I use Uncle Mikes nylon for wet weather and open carry on the trail.
I have Gould for combat pistol competition.(not the best, but it gets beaten up)
Kramer molds in a sight relief channel in its' 1911 holster, as my 1911's have night sights and they can hang up on tactical draw.
The Gould does not.
I use Kydex for 1911 tactical mag holder for tactical changes.
They get beat up, too.
I like those nylon Bianchi holster that fit to form.
Coach Duff, there is only one answer to your question and I already answered it; that is RCW 9A.16.020 this is the legal defenition of deadly force and situations when it is not unlawful to use, this according to the Revised Code of Washington (RCW). Using any other reason to kill is just likely to get you thrown in prison for murder or manslaughter.
If I made one of you concealed carry bubbas sit down and think a bit about why and how you do carry, than that was the whole idea. What was very interesting was how hotheaded and personal alot of you became and how fast you some of you guys who carry guns escalated things, even if online. Now for reality again. The truth of the matter is that in Washington there are no required training, no tests no nothing for a CCP. It's a matter of going down to the Police Station and being fingerprinted more or less. So a bunch of you have no fucking idea to what you are doing. That is my concern (to folks like Mike T) because you are putting me in danger. Lastly AS I AM you have two different times given me black and white answers to completely grey questions. In fact you are untrained and quite frankly your "There is only one answer" reply is a bit scary and complete and utter bullshit. Typical but scary. This is grey area stuff, not black and white, most of which leads to another human's death. But since none of you even have the foresight into addressing the "when do I pull it out" question, I give AS I AM props for trying. I got these quesitions from a poster on the DeadlyForce in Washington site. A poster on that website threw out the questions:
Hello, I'm a brand new CCP holder and had a few questions regarding the use of deadly force. I have searched google and this forum but to no avail. I'm curious as to what the law states about the use of deadly force; when is it warranted and what are the legal repercussions. I'm living in Washington state (I'm sure laws vary by state).
1. It's 3AM and someone forces entry into my home. What can I do legally?
2. I'm at the grocery store and some chump holds checker at gun point demanding money. What can I legally do?
Thank You very much. I'm sorry if this topic has been discussed many times before, if so can someone direct me to an old thread?
The answer another poster sent in was I think well thought out and far more applicable than reciting me back the black and white Washington laws on deadly force. And I bet a whole bunch of us flyfishing types agree It goes like this:
Your looking for black and white answers to very gray questions.
First, it's not "what can I do legally?" but rather what are my options.
If someone is in your home who is not an invited guest, then why are they there? Is it one of your kids' friends looking for a couch to crash on after a few too many brews? Is it old man withers who thinks he still lives there? Is it a thief looking for a quick item to grab? Is this an armed robbery? The answer to your first question ranges from "nothing" to "open fire". Personally, I own nothing in my house that is worth a human life; Period. I will not stand before a jury or my creator and say "that laptop was worth more than the life of a stranger".
If however, this is someone armed, or threatening to myself, wife or kids then all bets are off, as in "Sow bear protecting cubs".
Your second question is likewise not open to a yes or no answer. Can you draw down on a robber? What is the setup? Did you just walk up to the checkout and see the cashier get bent over the counter and the gun getting the hammer thumbed back while the muzzle is buried in the nape of her neck? Or, you see someone pull a gun and demand cash and acting ready to bolt for the door as soon as the green hit's his hand. And, just to mix things up. How many are they? Is there a good backstop that will stop your missed or pass-through shot? Is the sidewalk busy with innocent people? Your gun may end up causing deaths that would never have occurred if you just stood back and take notes for the police. Rather than having a "Well done" you may end up getting a manslaughter charge or sued in a wrongful death case.
Here's the mindset we all need to have. It's not "when can I cap this guy?" but "how can I avoid trouble and never have to take this gun out, or take a human life?"
Anytime you pull a gun to engage trouble your on extremely thin ice, over a very swift river. Professionally trained LEO's loose their jobs and even do jail time every year for getting too far out over that thin ice. I'll only go there if there is absolutely no other way out.
Now if one of you (Steely Dan is the exception, he PMd me!) would have even approached an answer like this one, we all would have known you have a good concept and idea of why you are carrying a gun flyfishing. But NONE of you did and once again, it seems to lend to the idea that you are carrying for every reason but the right ones. So go ahead carry your asses off, it's a right a bunch of us have fought our asses off so you can. But it makes no sense flyfishing and a majority of you can't justify why you do. A bunch of you carry a concealed loaded firearm while FLYFISHING because it gives you a false sense of bravado and security. It's ridiculous. Each to his own and I am done with this subject.
I conceal under my waders because it's difficult for me to rob people if they can see my gun before they approach me. That's the great thing about fly anglers, they're all rich.
This thread is a great read and I know that a few of you get pretty up set when someone asks "why". Sooooo
I think I'm going to start carrying (a gun) when I go fish out in the desert because there are rattlesnakes at RF and most places that I fish.
Then it all comes down to can I draw my pistol and shoot that snake before it bites me?
Not unless I see it coming first. Sooooo now my mind has changed again why carry (a gun) for the snakes when I'll just get bit anyway and if I see it coming I'll get out of the way or use my rod or something else the distract the snake.
Now the other reason the carry a gun to protect yourself from people that would do you harm. Again my mind is changed to using my rod or my hand to hand training.
Again it all comes down to (if you can see them coming or not)
If you have to fish in places that you feel you could lose your life to people, you better be well trained the fine arts of hand to hand combat.
Now if it just makes you feel better to have your firearm close at hand no matter where you go I believe you should carry it like a professional out in the open in a holster.
A few threads back someone brought up (around the camp fire and beers or soft drinks for the young at heart).
Please let me buy the first round.
Great read guys, even some of the name calling makes for good some good laughs.
Coach Duff, I gave the legal definitions for a reason, just because the answer was delivered to you in a method that is different than what you wanted, doesn't mean it is wrong. Broken down, the not unlawful use of deadly force means, in defense of self or another against an imminent threat against bodily harm or life. And yes my answer is black and white, which is because I don’t see it as a gray area. There is murder and there is self defense, or defense of another. Coach Duff, if you had read through my other posts (even the ones not addressed to you) you would have seen that I already stated that even though the situation may arise when it is legal to use deadly force, it is still more desirable to avoid its use. And I would appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth; I never once stated “when can I cap this guy?” Just because I gave you a legal definition does not mean I’m looking for a legal reason to “cap” someone.