NFR: Suck it up Mariner fans.......

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by IveofIone, Sep 25, 2013.

  1. IveofIone Active Member

    Posts: 3,057
    .
    Ratings: +1,069 / 0
    .....Jack Z is back for more of the same. I just seems like he, Eric Wedge and the front office are totally clueless about what it takes to assemble a winner. I keep hearing: "Yeah, but they have some good young kids coming along..." To this I would counter: "Yeah, but even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while..."

    Z was hired in 2008 with great fanfare as the savior of the franchise. In '09 the team went 85-77 with largely a team assembled by his predecessor. Since then they have never had a winning season, are nearly 100 games under .500 in that span and have already lost more games this year than they did last.

    I can see why Danica Patrick keeps her job in NASCAR despite the fact that she'll never win-she's cute and sexy. Jack is neither and at some point the question needs to be asked--What have you done for me lately? Jack doesn't have an answer for that question.

    Ive
  2. Stonefish Triploid and Humpy Hater

    Posts: 3,860
    Pipers Creek
    Ratings: +1,262 / 1
    It is football season.
    The Mariners can suck it.....which they've done really well at for the past 10+ years.
    Skysoldier and CLO like this.
  3. Michael Morris Member

    Posts: 72
    Kenmore
    Ratings: +15 / 0

    I couldn't agree more...on top of that look at Eric Wedge's career numbers...he is a career loser. We have consistently had one of the top farm systems in baseball...that is until the reach Eric Wedge. The Oakland A's top to Bottom dont have that much more talent than we do...but what they have is coaching and player development. We are still riding Smoak like he will somehow turn into a .260 hitter. Really?!?! Our first baseman, the prize possesion in the Cliff Lee deal to which we could have had Chris Davis would be a miracle season if he could only hit .260 20 hr and drive in 85...

    Can you imagine if the mariners were managed and operated like the Seahawks ? wow that would be nice. Unfortunately, there are a lot of clueless mariner fans that buy into this, "next year" , or "these young guys are turning it around" bull crap. Time to cut the fat..smoak, guti, saunders, saunders, ackley, to name a few.
  4. Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

    Posts: 7,136
    Not sure
    Ratings: +1,225 / 0
    As a former season ticket holder back during the glory days of the 116 win season, I'm convinced that the M's problem isn't with the GM or Manager. Instead it's Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong.

    A lawyer and former General Counsel (and later Chairman) of Nintendo of America, Howard Lincoln's baseball experience and expertise prior to Hiroshi Yamauchi's purchase of the team was exactly zero. Chuck Armstrong's qualifications to be the M's President are identcal.

    Together, they're poster children for the notion that just because someone's an attorney doesn't automatically make them an expert in any other field.

    But being lawyers out of their depth isn't unique to the M's senior management. Look no further than any member of the US Senate or House and come to the same conclusion.

    K
    Porter likes this.
  5. Michael Morris Member

    Posts: 72
    Kenmore
    Ratings: +15 / 0
    Definitely falls heavily on those 2 and things wont change until you change the culture. But as a manager you still need to get the most of your players...Wedge does not, it almost seems like he has the opposite effect. He doesn't manage this team to his strengths, infact it seems like he hardly does any managing other than a lineup card.. how many times have we seen the mariners un able to play simple situational baseball. But yes I agree we need to oust the front office before we will ever see a change. Just disheartening to see how bad this franchise is and how little care there seems to be to improve it.
  6. IveofIone Active Member

    Posts: 3,057
    .
    Ratings: +1,069 / 0
    Kent, I think failure has just become endemic to the entire Mariner culture. It starts with the fans who pay big bucks to support a loser and do it year after year. They are willing to pay big ticket prices to watch a team that has a 56% possibility to fail. If you bought a car that failed before it was paid for or ate at a restuarant that made you sick 56% of the time why would you go back?

    Fans need to make the case with their wallets and boycott these bozos until they put an acceptable product on the field. As long as they can put enough butts in seats to turn a profit there is little motivation to change. Since the guys running the show aren't really baseball men only empty seats and a reduced bottom line will get their attention.

    As Michael stated they have to look no further than the Seahawks for a successful template.

    Ive
    Kent Lufkin likes this.
  7. wadin' boot Donny, you're out of your element...

    Posts: 2,017
    Wallingford, WA
    Ratings: +1,560 / 0
    Seems like July they got some groove then Wedge had his stroke. hard to know how hard that rattled folks. Sometimes a stroke forces you take stock of what is really important and what is not.

    Is a grown man dressing in a costume and chasing, watching or smacking a ball with a piece of wood important?
  8. Porter Active Member

    Posts: 6,438
    Kenmore, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +515 / 0
    When they had real baseball men they put out a good product, that was when sweet lou (piniella) and pat gillick were here. Lou didn't put up with sh*t that led to losing via players or others, and Gillick seemed to make some decent moves for immediate help, like the 'Sheriff' and also in tough times...like the Griffey deal...Cameron was a good fit! There are no more Lou's out there Im afraid....and Mariner higher ups don't want a GM that doesn't play ball with them first. And they would never let a Billy Beane run the show!

    Through all this losing, managers, players, and gm's have changed, but one thing has remained constant. Kent is dead on! (IMHO)
  9. IveofIone Active Member

    Posts: 3,057
    .
    Ratings: +1,069 / 0
    Boot, your comment begs the question-is a grown man wearing plastic pants and clodhoppers waving a flimsy wand at an invisible quarry really important?:)

    I guess the big difference is they get paid, we spend.

    Ive
    wadin' boot and Kent Lufkin like this.
  10. wadin' boot Donny, you're out of your element...

    Posts: 2,017
    Wallingford, WA
    Ratings: +1,560 / 0
    Ive I ask myself the same question many, many times and my answer is a resounding no
    smc and Brett Angel like this.
  11. freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Posts: 4,021
    Edgewood, WA
    Ratings: +728 / 1
    Mariners management...working at breakneck speed towards mediocrity. Keep your expectations low and you won't be disappointed. Now, about Danica Patrick...
  12. Nick Clayton Active Member

    Posts: 2,863
    Ratings: +1,143 / 4
    The Seahawks have a long standing history of failure. Its just recently that they have sniffed some success. I have a hard time believing it's the fans fault by continuing to love their team.... Hawks fans have continued to show up in force through years of miserable teams. Hell, if anything it seems that baseball fans are much more fickle.... when is the last time you recall only 10k people showing up to a Seahawks game? I am not defending the ownership by any stretch but the Hawks weren't really pressured by the lack of ticket purchases toput a winning product on the field, yet he we are. I don't like to see fans turn their back on a team but I certainly can't blame them. But saying the only reason they don't put a better product out there is just because us fans haven't given them the motivation seems like a real stretch.
  13. Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

    Posts: 7,136
    Not sure
    Ratings: +1,225 / 0
    Let's be clear about all professional sports, not just the M's. First, they're in the entertainment business, nothing else. Second, they're in business to make money, not to lose it. Third, the way to make money is to put as many warm butts in the seats as possible.

    The question though is how best to accomplish all three?

    Some teams succeed through a combination of astute front office skills, effective on-field management, and throwing lots of money at the enterprise. Think the NY Yankees. Season after season, more folks turn out to Safeco Field to boo the Yankees than any other opponent. They're damned good at generating box office revenue, no matter how much we love to hate them.

    Others, like the Oakland A's under Billy Beane, achieved success in spite of having limited financial wherewithal. But unlike the A's, the M's often have a payroll that ranks them in the top 3-4 teams in the entire league.

    Where the M's wheels come off is not how much they spend, but what they spend it on. During the Nintendo era, the M's have shown themselves to be easily dazzled by aging free agents whose glory days are clearly behind them, but whose agent somehow succeed in convincing the team to cough up big money on a hollow promise of glory to come.

    The decisions to sign a string of all-but-washed-up players like Scott Spezio or Ricky Henderson weren't made by the Manager, or even the General Manager. Those calls were made by Lincoln and Armstrong, living out their boyhood fantasies of being movers and shakers of major league baseball. The book Shipwrecked, A people's history of the Seattle Mariners by Jon Wells paints a none-too-flattering picture of the M's under the management of Lincoln and Armstrong.

    Problem is, their attorney mindset causes them to look at making hiring decisions that involve lots of zeros to the left of the decimal point in a less-creative, more conservative, cover-your-ass kind of way. It's a lot easier to rationalize spending big bucks on an over the hill player with a track record than to gamble on an up and comer without one.

    K
  14. Kevin J. Burnham Active Member

    Posts: 2,148
    Auburn,Wa.
    Ratings: +140 / 0
    Kent you are right !! Ive you are also right !! The one thing left out though is the Seattle fans. I don't think much of them. One level above Atlanta,Pittsburgh,Oakland. Give em an Ichiro and that's all they need. Wins wins who needs stinking wins !!!!
    Kent Lufkin likes this.
  15. Old Man Just an Old Man

    Posts: 21,636
    Dillon, Mt
    Ratings: +1,664 / 0
    I think that hitters on the Mariners are the worst hitters in baseball. Sure they can hit a few home runs but you need more hitters to get on base and they fail in that respect. They need a good batting coach and the fail there also.
  16. o mykiss Active Member

    Posts: 1,303
    .
    Ratings: +176 / 0
    Yes, I'm sure they have failed because they're lawyers. The list of former lawyers who've achieved success in MLB is a lengthy one - Bill Neukom (GM SF Giants when they won the World Series in 2010), Sandy Alderson (GM of the A's when they won the World Series in 1989), Joe Garagiola, Jr. (GM of Diamondbacks when they won the World Series in 2001), Tony LaRussa (managed A's and Cardinals to World Series championship), etc., etc. - but nevermind.

    Back on topic though - someone needs to go in with a big broom and sweep the entire FO clean. New ownership would help.
  17. Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

    Posts: 7,136
    Not sure
    Ratings: +1,225 / 0
    So four former lawyers were successful in MLB? Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every once in a while.

    I've enjoyed having a large Boston Intellectual Property law firm as a client for over a decade. When they're not busy with actual billable work, every one of the 80 attorneys is an expert at marketing, design, copywriting and web development (and probably baseball too.)

    The firm's real marketing guy doesn't even dream of making a decision in the presence of so many marketing geniuses. Instead he convenes a committee he calls the Politburo comprised of about half the firm's roster.

    They review all prospective marketing activities, nitpick them to death, throw them all out and then bicker among themselves for months over whose opinion is really the best before finally (and reluctantly) approving the original proposal (and far past the original deadline.)

    To paraphrase, a camel is a horse designed by a bunch of attorneys.

    K
  18. o mykiss Active Member

    Posts: 1,303
    .
    Ratings: +176 / 0
    Kent, how many successful MLB GMs or managers have been former web designers like you, genius? If you really have that low an opinion of lawyers, maybe you should stop doing business with them.
    Kent Lufkin likes this.
  19. IveofIone Active Member

    Posts: 3,057
    .
    Ratings: +1,069 / 0
    This just in--Wedge is gone! That's gonna be a tuff act to follow. Whaddaya think-is Bobby Valentine a good fit to keep the sub .500 seasons going?:D

    Ive
  20. 2506 Member

    Posts: 162
    Seattle, WA
    Ratings: +10 / 0
    The M's need to retool. They need to flush the entire front office and find a new manager. They need to find a new firstbaseman, they need to decide between Hackley and Franklin, they need three actual outfielders, a solid veteran backup catcher, and a whole lot of help in the pitching department. That's ten new players at least. What we'll do instead is keep Smoak, sign and overpay Morales, probably keep Ibanez as well.