On religion and such

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by BOBLAWLESS, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. BOBLAWLESS New Member

    Posts: 2,879
    Port Ludlow, WA, USA.
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    I suppose I'm just trying to stir up trouble but just maybe we could have an intelligent, calm, repectful discussion of faith based thinking and get to know one another better. Allow me to state my own conclusions thus far and I hope to offend no one.

    I just don't have enough information to believe in any of the modern religions, nor ancient ones for that matter. I am a pagan, I guess. My morality is based on the golden rule and actually, if there is a God, I don't think He/She will find me offensive. I spent my life helping others.

    But though I believe in evolution and the big bang theory and though I am a Darwinist, I have to think that there must have been some sort of a creator of it all. I just can't think of any better theory so I'll have to go with that idea. Somebody or somebodies started it all. Maybe they started it and then left and don't give a damn about me or what happens to me. I can live with that. I am thankful for the life I have had and the pleasures I have known and actually I've not had that many stormy days.

    In short, I am at peace with all this religion business but it scares me to see my country being run by born agains and other fundamentalists. These people give me the willies.

    Bob, the oh well, it's late; I'm going to bed, but I would enjoy the boards thoughts if we can keep it rational and dignified and restpect each other's right to be different. :thumb:
  2. Nailknot Active Member

    Posts: 1,895
    Cascadia
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    Well, Bob, peace be with you. I'm not sure, how God planned death or extinctions in the plan. But he must have written them in, considering. Those who choose only to look at the book (man's creation) at the expense of the wild (God creation) can preach all they want. But we must appreciate the truth and I really feel for those searching in the wrong direction. But what can you do. I guess we all find God where we find it, and for the deeply sinned, as with most habits, they want to find it easy. I suppose we'll all see if the short-cut to salvation works in the end. I'm betting on practice over preaching, myself. Redemption is tempting to the wrong do-ers most of all.
  3. wet line New Member

    Posts: 2,313
    Burien, WA, King.
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    I am probably going to ruffle some tail feathers here, but what is new LOL!

    Yes, I have no doubts about there being a GOD. But who or what HE or She is, well I don't think there is an answer!

    As for organized religions they tend to irritate me. Most are fear mongerers and try to tell me what GOD's intentions are for mankind. Well I don't think they know as there is no way they can even begin to percieve what GOD is let alone intentions.

    Allow me to relate an analogy that was posed to me once.
    There is a fish tank with fish in it. There is a light source, air pump and food supplied. The owner of the fish has control of the light, the air and the food, in the fishes perspective the man is a god who can supply or take away everything in the fishes world. When man dribbles food in the water the fish percieves the shadow of the mans hand and to the fish the man is a god. So what does the fish know of the gods intent and thoughts and who and what that god truely entails. Nothing, because the fish doesn't have the capacity to know. Well the same can be said for mortal man to explain and define GOD. All we see is a shadow of the hand.

    Dave
  4. Old Man Just an Old Man

    Posts: 21,121
    Dillon, Mt
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    Well the way I feel about all of this is that there are some things to believe in and some things not to believe in. And if there is such a being as god,why is there so much suffering in this world. In my years I have believed in a lot of things but not in a god. Like the bible. Most believe in it. But to me it is just a book written by who knows not.

    I will shut up now before you all hate me. But You that believe,believe. And you that don't,don't. I for one don't.

    Jim
  5. Davy Active Member

    Posts: 2,019
    SIlverton, OR
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    I agree with that one, best selling "novel" of all time, in the fiction genre ofcourse.
  6. jessejames Flyslinger

    Posts: 1,825
    Show Low, Arizona
    Ratings: +311 / 3
    Bob:
    i am not the least bit surprised about your post it seems that religion is one thing that you bring up almost as much as fishing.
    I will be participating is this thread with vigor. But why not have some ground rules. No mention of specific denominations. Lets just talk about who God is, the nature of his work in the universe. Lets not get into calling each other names this is not talk radio. A civil discourse about religion is possible and profitable. If you don't want to participate don't log on and harass those who choose to.
    Bob I am surprised that you consider yourself to be a Pagan. You have an admiration of Thomas Jefferson and his religious views and you seem to believe in a intelligent designer creation view. This would make you a Deist rather than a pagan in the true sense.
    A Deist believes that there is a God and He created mankind and the earth that man lives in. But after creation He turned his back on this incredible work and let it run by itself.
    This a great theory for modern man it does not push away God completely. It allows man to invoke God when times are tough. It holds out hope that if we are good enough and help others enough and are at least better than some of our neighbors then IF THERE IS A GOD HE WILL APPROVE OF US. But being a Diest means that because God has no daily interaction with man then there is no personal accountability.
    I am a minor creator of sorts, not like God who created out of nothing, they say. But I do take materials and create things out of those materials, things I am proud of and care for. I have never toiled over a creation whether a work of art or a building (I am a carpenter by trade) and then not cared for it protected it and told people that I created that and I am proud of it. I don't think God did either.
    God is The Creator and Sustainer of the Universe and nothing happens that He doesn't see and care about.
    jesse clark
  7. Davy Active Member

    Posts: 2,019
    SIlverton, OR
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    JEEE$U$ ! this oughta be good
  8. Zen Piscator Supporting wild steelhead, gravel to gravel.

    Posts: 3,076
    Missoula, MT
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    I do not practice any relegions because i like to think for myself. It is that simple.

    Peace,
    Andy
  9. jessejames Flyslinger

    Posts: 1,825
    Show Low, Arizona
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    Andy:
    Do you think that religion is some kind of brainwashing?
    Religion or faith is not blindly following anything. When I studied the options of beliving or not believing in God the creator of the universe I did not check my brains at the door of faith. I chose by intellect to believe.I examined the evidence and made my decision. By my own free will and intellegince I live my life. I am not some puppet of God or any religious leader.
    I never feel compelled by my faith or by some cosmic interference to either do good or evil. I by my own choice determine if I want to choose the action that will be pleasing to God. I do however believe that once I choose to live in a way that is accordance to Scriptures then God does give me the power to live that choice out in real life.
    Andy when you are on a stream fishing there are rules that you follow not only regulations that are set up by ths State but you follow ethics and traditions that have been passed on to you by those that you fish with and respect, You dont put on a heavily weighted fly and drag it through a school of fish hoping to hook one in the mouth so you can say you legally caught it. It would be OK by many standards but you have chosen not to do it. You in you fishing life have restricted yourself to fishing in a certain manner traditional with many quality flyfishers. So does this mean you are not thinking for yourself? Because you have by your own free will chosen to follow a code of conduct you believe in??
    People who have not had a real experience with God or have not seen how a genuine Christian lives out their life don't understand that we follow out of choice not compulsion.
    Christianity is the thinking mans religion not one of fear, or blind obedience.
    jesse clark
  10. BOBLAWLESS New Member

    Posts: 2,879
    Port Ludlow, WA, USA.
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    Jesse:

    I am surprised you chide me about posting about religion as often as I do fishing. A small fact for you: I have 2,616 posts about fishing. I have two (2) posts about religion. But don't let facts cloud your thinking. :rofl:

    I was just joking about being a pagan. I am a deist of course, and pattern much of my thinking after Thomas Jefferson, the greatest of all presidents in my view.

    Bob, the I think I'll head down to the beach and see what's up; I might get a trout or two before dark. That is if God wants me to do so. :rofl:
  11. mr trout Trevor Hutton

    Posts: 545
    Yakima, WA, USA.
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    iagree iagree iagree
    That pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter...not that i don't have stronger opinions, but we are trying to keep this civil...so I leave it at that :thumb:
  12. cmtundra New Member

    Posts: 514
    Tacoma, WA, USA.
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    I believe in God. I believe in the Bible.

    I believe that organized religion usually does a very poor job of accurately representing either of the above.

    I believe the searcher who is hungry to know God, The Father, will come unto an understanding of the truth -which is spiritual in nature.

    I believe that the person who is not hungry to know God, The Father, will never understand the truth, no matter how many times it's explained.

    I believe that once a person finally decides that he wants to know the heart of the Father, God, that God will make a way where there is no way, for that person to have access to the heart of God.

    I believe that God is a God of free will. He does not control man's choices and never has.

    I believe there is One, True God.

    I believe there are many false gods, all which fall under a hierarchy of their father, the father of lies, the archenemy of the True God; you know his name.

    I believe that the false god and his hierarchy have the collective goal of usurping the throne of God and being worshipped like the True God. I believe he's largely succeeded.

    I believe that people have largely blamed the One True God, for the evil works of the false god. This trickery has mainly been introduced by mainstream religion. God never introduced death or sickness, they were never in his original design.

    I believe, in the end, the True God will triumph. Evil, death, sorrow, sickness, and pain will all be vanquishied. God will gather together all that are His and there will be a new heavens and new earth.

    Finally, I believe that it is my responsibility and privilege to represent God, my Father well. I gladly help and teach any person who is honestly hungry to draw near to the heart of God, just as others have done for me. I do not feel the need to force my beliefs on anyone, because as mentioned before, I cannot force anyone to change. God can't even force anyone to change or believe. I simply make available what I know to be true to those who want to know it.
  13. Davy Active Member

    Posts: 2,019
    SIlverton, OR
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    ..if there is a god the C&R season on the Sky shall be miraculously opened Tuesday :cool: :cool: :cool:

    .....well written stuff here ... :thumb: 'cept ol me ofcourse
  14. jessejames Flyslinger

    Posts: 1,825
    Show Low, Arizona
    Ratings: +311 / 3
    Bob: I hope you catch a fish or maybe two. If you do it will probably be because you have developed skill levels to be able to find and subdue the wily scaled things. But God did put them there for your enjoyment!
    Cmtundra Nice post :thumb:
    jesse clark
  15. Lisa New Member

    Posts: 10
    Portland, OR
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    Jesse,

    "People who have not had a real experience with God or have not seen how a genuine Christian lives out their life don't understand that we follow out of choice not compulsion.
    Christianity is the thinking mans religion not one of fear, or blind obedience."

    You are making the assumption that anyone that does not believe in christianity has not had an experience with God. I have had spiritual experiences with a power bigger than myself, you may call it God. These are the kind of comments that christians make to people that think or believe different than themselves to make them feel like it is their fault for not believing in christianity. I do believe that genuine christians do follow out of a true desire to follow the teachings of christ and follow with out fear, or blind obedience. While I do not believe or follow those teachings, I do respect those that are genuine to their beliefs. Spending the first 24 years of my life very committed to a single christian religion and then spending another 5 years seeking out other christian religions I found a common link to them all and it wasn't christ. A good majority were sunday only members, ones that did follow blindly, tried to convert others based on fear, or made comments to put themselves above those that do not believe in their beliefs. This is the reason that a lot of non-christians tend to think that about all christians.

    Bob,

    Just a quick note- you said that you didn't believe in ancient religions and that we could call you a pagan. Pagan is a christian term for all ancient religions. Some even include native american beliefs in the pagan sections of libraries and other reference materials.

    Lisa
  16. Big K1 Large Member

    Posts: 538
    Duvall, WA, U.S.A.
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    Religion. No thanks.
  17. David Holmes Formerly known as "capmblade"

    Posts: 590
    Snoqualmie, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +31 / 0
    Religion. Give thanks!
  18. Davy Active Member

    Posts: 2,019
    SIlverton, OR
    Ratings: +16 / 0
    speaking of taxes...... hmmmmm? aren't we taxing everything else these days? Nothing seems untouchable, especially issues deemed a public safety or health threat, so why not churches???

    It is a public safety issue when you understand that Sunday is the only day many elderly drive- ( ok maybe twice a week, Sunday and Bingo day at the senior center)

    If we could tax the churches out of business we could remove some of that public safety risk, perhaps by 50%.
  19. jessejames Flyslinger

    Posts: 1,825
    Show Low, Arizona
    Ratings: +311 / 3
    Lisa:
    Nice post.
    My comment which you quoted is not an assumption, I am taliking about the chistian's God while there are many gods that people worship there is only one christian God, The God of Creation.
    There are many sects within the definition of Christianity there is only one True God of christianity.
    While I appreciate the "spiritual experiences" that many people have, a spiritual experience can be with a another person or with nature or in meditation. A spiritual experience can be peaceful or enlightening. But the difference is that when this spiritual experience is rooted in the believe of the God of Creation there is power that flows from God to you, if the spiritual experience is just an experience the power has to come from within, it is limited by our own frailties. There is no positive supernatural power in just feeling good.
    There is no power in having great faith, only power in having little faith in a big God.
    Davy even though you are being sarcastic about taxes, I agree with you. (not the part about little old people driving on Sunday)
    I believe that if people are doing God's work In God's way then it will be successful (nothing will thwart God's plan) Therefore the Christian church, and Christian ministers do not need a tax break. Every church should be on the same footing with any other business and pay taxes on all income and property. It wouldn't take long for those churches that are not doing Gods work to be out of business. The mega rich churches with the huge cathedrals and TV evangelists (shudder)would have no incentive from the government to hide income and assets. This would make the churches that survive more genuine.
    jesse clark
  20. pwoens Active Member

    Posts: 2,570
    Spokane, Washington, USA.
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    I saw a sign the other day and it read "Faith is daring the soul to go beyond what the eyes can see". I really liked that sign :D

    There has been a lot of civil conversation so far.....that is awesome. Typically I would say "gee, thanks Bob....here we go again", but this time it seems to be different. :thumb:

    When you mention the "golden rule" are you talking about the ten commandments or just the "do unto others as you want them to do unto you"?

    When I lived this way I thought I was doing alright. But when I started to examine my life and try to keep a journal of my rights and my wrongs, I realized it was not adding up. Maybe you are way better of a person than me, but when I added my good versus bad up, the bad really outweighed the good. And I'm not talking about murder and adultry, but the little things really add up. You know, when you look at a woman with lustful eyes, think judgemental thoughts about someone because of what they posted or what they said or what they were wearing or where they lived or the type of life they were living or the kind of car they drove or the brand of rod they were fishing or where they worked or how they worked or how they didnt work or how they raised their kids or how they treated their parents or how they used wet flies instead of dry flies, ect.... This all ties into that golden rule. We can not pick and choose what we want to be accountable for. We are accountable for every little action, every little thought, every little trait.

    What really changed my life was doing the research for myself, not attending some organized religion on sunday mornings.. I was walking through life thinking that all would be well cause I was generally a good person. When I looked for God, I found him. He is there and he is a loving God who cares for you more than you could ever imagine. He is an undeniable God. I know you have some time on your hands Bob, or anyone for that matter, use it to research on your own and dont listen to anyone. You are very intelligent and I know if you look into it with an open mind you will find the truth. Pick up a bible and read it, research it, try to find falicies and fictions that are undeniable. If what the bible says about heaven and hell are true, I would think everyone would want to research it on their own and try to prove its wrong so hell doesnt happen. If eternity is really going to happen, thats a lot longer than any time we will spend here on earth. I know when I tried to disprove God I failed. Please Bob, research it and pm me your findings or questions. I would love to carry a dialogue about this as it could do us both good. :thumb:

    last words = if heaven and hell do exist and God is the only way to heaven, but we choose to ignore or not believe this is reality, then when we die we will spend eternity in hell. If heaven and hell do not exist and we choose to believe in them then when we die, we will simply die. So if you choose to believe in God and God is real, you will be happy when you die. But if you choose to not believe in God, you are going to be very unhappy when you die.


    I didnt quite follow your post? Are you saying that you use to be a Christian but have since turned away from Christ? Or did I read that wrong?

    I do agree with you on the church aspect. The whole organized religion aspect of today is corrupt. People who talk the talk but do not walk the walk truly do give Christians a bad reputation. It seems every time I watch a so-called Christian television show, all they want is money. God doesnt need our money :beathead: he gave us our money.

    And welcome to the board :thumb: I look forward to your input.



    Excellent post cmtundra



    amen