On religion and such

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by BOBLAWLESS, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. pwoens Active Member

    Posts: 2,570
    Spokane, Washington, USA.
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    In the words of Old Man Jim
  2. jessejames Flyslinger

    Posts: 1,855
    Show Low, Arizona
    Ratings: +345 / 3
    The Dems one independant and a renegade republican blocked the "clear Skies" initiative it did not make it out of committee. If this will stand we hopefully will not see this backward step in enviroinmental legislation.
    Bob destroying the environment is not a Christian value. Being aligned with big business and energy is a Repulican value. Two different things.
    Blessings
    jesse clark
  3. BOBLAWLESS New Member

    Posts: 2,879
    Port Ludlow, WA, USA.
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    Jason:

    Not talking about it does not make it go away. This section of the site is designed to allow discussion of conservation, politics and whatever. Interestingly, all the political and religious talk ultimately bears on the issue of conservation without which we will have no fishing. So it all fits.

    You can simply skip this page if you wish. But exhorting others to skip it, deprives them the ability to discuss things that are as important to them as fishing. In fact, I believe it is the responsibility of fisherman to examine political, religious and conservation issues in order to protect their sport and make intelligent choices based on fact, not burying one's head in the sand.

    Bob, the Just avoid the post if it upsets you. There will be no tests. :ray1:
  4. Randy Knapp Active Member

    Posts: 1,132
    Warm Springs, Virginia, USA.
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    Lisa,

    There were a few things you stated in your response to my second post, that upon rereading and reflection, require a response from me.

    I think that ascribing certain behavior traits to Christians whether good or bad can be a pretty subjective judgement whether we are talking about political figures, tele-evangelists, or our neighbors. Concerning the latter you write, " these same neighbors that tell their kids that they can not do sleep overs at our house because we are not christians or let my son join their christian boy scout group." It is very difficult for me to respond to such an allegation since I don't know you, your son, nor your neighbors. I can say that the Bible addresses our behavior specifically both in the words recorded to have been said by Jesus and those who commented upon the faith of believers in both old and new testaments. Jesus specifically stated that hypocrasy could be recognized by behavior (Matthew 7:15-20). Non believers tend not to like to read other's quotes from Scripture and believers tend to want Scriptural authority for everything so I will make the references for those who want to look them up and read them on their own. He also said that it took more than mere lip service or apparent religious works to get into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 7:20-23). He stated we are to be good examples to others. So good in fact that others will see our behavior, and as a result, give glory to God (Matthew 5: 14-16). I think most people in this country have been exposed to enough Bible to know the "Golden Rule" (Matthew 7:12; Luke 6:31) and that Jesus said not to judge others (Matthew 7:1; Luke 6:37) and maybe even the further step of loving our enemies (Matthew 5: 44-46). That said, I doubt that few are very familiar with the passage in Paul's letter to the new believers in Corinth stating that believers are free to associate with unbelievers despite their behavior and are only to judge other professing Christians' behavior (1 Corinthians 5: 9-13).

    Also, you wrote that I wrote a post saying that "the christians do great works and the non christians don't." If you understood me to be saying that then I apologize. I merely wanted to call your attention to the many missions, the Salvation Army, etc. that serve the community at large without regard to the belief system held by those served and challenge you to find such missions run by other major religions other than those that are Christian based or sponsored. There certainly are a few but not many. It is because true Christianity is a rebirth and renewal based upon a relationship with a person (Jesus Christ) and not merely a set of precepts or dogma or experience and Jesus wants to reach all. My own church, University Presbyterian, has many such outreaches to the community including one for those with aids and a specific ministry and feeding program for the local street youth in the U District where the church is located. We welcome all who want to attend regardless of beliefs. Membership is based upon a more strictly Christian belief and lifestyle but that is because of the very misrepresentation that unbelievers get from those who profess to be Christian but do not act like the followers of Christ would be expected to act. It is the church's job (I speak here of the church universal which is made up of all true believers as well as the local assembly of believers of which I am associated by attendence and membership)to separate herself from hypocrasy and un-Christ-like behavior.

    You also said, "Other post (sic) have asked would someone die for a lie or would someone make up the bible. Yes, people have died for a lie ask those in Waco or do you believe that was true." I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough on this one either. What I said was, "would you die for something you knew to be a lie?" Those at Waco may have believed the lie they were told was the truth but that is not the same as knowing the lie was a lie but dying because you wanted others to believe it was true. This brings us to another important distinction in the Biblical record. You also said, "I do not think that the Bible is false." Jesus claimed to be the Messiah (John4: 25-26), Jesus said that He was the way, the truth, and the life, not a way but the way(John 14:6). He said that only God should be worshipped(Matthew4:10) yet he himself received worship(Matthew8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 28:9,17; John9:38) but his disciples did not(Acts10: 26; 14:11-18). Jesus is called God (John1: 1,14; Hebrews 1:8) but the disbelieving Jews also understood that he was claiming to be God(John5:17-18)and perhaps even more importantly, Jesus allowed one of his disciples to call him God without correction(John 20:28). Jesus never denied the charges brought against him by the Jews and Romans. He voluntarily died in his human form on the Cross for you and me. If the things that were said about him, that he said of himself, and that his followers believed about him were a known lie than Jesus and his followers died for a lie and they were all lunatics. If they were in fact the truth, then we all need to closely examine our lives in light of that truth and come to grips with the fact that before a Holy God, we are sinners in need of a Savior. Though many have died throughout the ages for refusing to denounce their faith in God, the apostle Paul seems to be a standout among standouts. He was a Jewish Pharisee who persecuted the early church until his conversion, after which he presented the gospel throughout the Mediterranean area in three separate missionary journeys. He suffered greatly from Jews and non-Jews alike. It is recorded that he received 39 lashes 5 times, was beaten with rods 3 times, was stoned once, was shipwrecked 3 times and faced a host of other perils before dying in prison for preaching the gospel. Therefore, if he wasn't a psychopath, he too died for a lie...I think not.

    Lisa, I want you to know that I respect both you and your right to your opinions and it sounds as if you are raising your son to be a wonderful, giving person. I apologize for the behavior of those who call themselves believers in Jesus Christ(who claim for themselves the good news that we have salvation and forgiveness through belief and trust in what he did for us on the Cross) who do not act as Christ acted nor try to act as he would act were He in their shoes. Whether done in ignorance or in deception, such behavior is condemned in Scripture. The Bible is a very big book. There is a lot to absorb and to do so takes multiple readings and study and prayer and meditation. Even though we believers are adopted children of God and "born again" spiritually in Christ according to the Bible, we are also for the present time confined to a body of flesh and blood still subject to temptations. We still have to renew our minds by infusing them with the teachings of God versus the teaching of men. If we spend our time reading and listening and meditating on ideas and practises that go against the teachings of Christ, then it is no wonder that we don't behave as we should. That goes for me as well.

    I hope you will continue to keep an open mind. God promises we will find him if we search for him with all our heart(Jeremiah29:13). That goes for you too, Bob, and others of you who are still seeking answers for these tough questions.

    Randy
  5. BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    Port Ludlow, WA, USA.
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    Patrick, my brother,

    I read your post with careful attention and then I set it aside. I have been there so many times before. I have little to say but the same old tired, boring crap that I have been saying for 67 years, and your post seems much the same: the old, very tired lament of the Christian emploring others to join his belief system. I'm passed that I think. At least for now.

    I saw a great movie today, "Monsieur Ibrahim." It was a French flick and very well done as usual. It was about an old Muslim storekeeper who befriended this parentless Jewish child and finally adopted him as his son.
    It was a story of love and compassion and explained some of the tenets of the Koran. Excellent. When Monsieur Ibrahim was dying, he told his son not to cry because he was going to join the great immensity and he was unafraid.

    Bob, the Religion can do some wonderful things. iagree
  6. pwoens Active Member

    Posts: 2,570
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    The difference Bob, is that I have nothing to gain by sharing the truth with you. I do not receive anything by having a discussion with you about religion, no heavenly rewards, no gold stars by my name, no special treatment, no divine powers, no increase in my pay, no political agendas, nothing!! If anything, I come away sad after this because it is honestly hurtful to believe what I believe and know that an eternity in hell is prevelant for you. To you, my faith may appear to be on the same level as you're personal "tired, old, and boring crap" that you have spoke for the past 67 years. But to me, it is a fresh breath of life that only Jesus Christ can give me. From the bottom of my heart, the only thing I seek by sharing the truth with you, is your own salvation.

    God gave us free will and no one can make someone else believe what they personally believe. I am not "trying to get you to join my team" Bob, I am only sharing with you the one and only true way to salvation.

    Come to think of it, gold stars would be cool, but then again I always hated having the fewest gold stars so I probably wouldnt enjoy the gold star system that much. Nah, the more I think about it, I prefer it the way Jesus made it.

    If I didnt care for you Bob, I wouldn't even continue this conversation.
  7. headstrong1 youngish old guy

    Posts: 369
    Cashmere
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    Its all perspective my friends. For one who was raised by evolutionists, I look at religion and see a number of problems.

    1. Man was undeniably the product of a very long evolution based on selection by the environment. We are primates, and we have lots of cousins. You are 99% the same as a chimp. The christian view that God made earth for man alone really bothers me. The denial of evolution is silly if you have any grasp of genetics and geological time. We can see evolution in 1 hr in a petri dish, we can trace our own using genetics.

    2. Based on the above premise, the world is incredibly beautiful because the evolutionary process is the most fantastic force on earth. The view that the world is so beautifull that only a God could have created it is scientifically incrorrect. If God created evolution, well He is awesome. Absolutely the best self-governing system possible.

    3. Wars are commonly the result of religious intolerance. 500 religions can't all be correct.

    4. Humans have a deep need to feel they are important, and reassure them about death. This is the root of religion. Hell was invented to scare people into line.

    5. No one wants to believe that you become worm food after you die. This is much harder to believe psychologically than I will be flyfishing in heaven for eternity. The 'difficult' leap of faith is much easier to face than the truth.

    Just some thoughts. I try to love all people, nothing bothers me about religion other than when those views are forced upon me by law, or my own country imposes its religious beliefs into the courts, international policy or the like (i.e. this is why I cannot stand Bush). If you think he's a true christian I'd like to hear why. I say he's a hypocrite. (Who would Jesus bomb?) The KKK are christian, I doubt anyone here would endorse them...etc.

    Great thread, very nice to hear the eloquent responses from both sides.
  8. pwoens Active Member

    Posts: 2,570
    Spokane, Washington, USA.
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    hmm...interesting perspectives.

    Honestly, if we just die and become worm food, oh well. Live life to the fullest while you are here on this earth. I say to heck with the religion stuff and let's just do what our fleshly body desires. That sounds awesome to me. Why bother with religion if we just become worm food??? :confused: You do have a point there.

    Not trying to be sarcastic or carry a demeaning tone, just dont have any time left to be tactful as I have to leave.....will respond further later.
  9. BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    Headstrong 1

    Some good observations there; many reflect exactly my own conclusions, especially the one about Bush. Nice thinking.

    Patrick, my friend<

    Your post was touching and made much sense from your point of view. Trouble is, I don't have that same view point. I have nothing to win either (except from your view point). I don't go from door to door and I would be saddened to learn that anything I might have said had disuaded you from your religious beliefs. Never my intention, not with you, nor anyone.

    I was a bit chilled but your statement that I would burn in hell for eternity because I didn't come around to the teachings of Christ. Remember that Christians only number about 500 million of the world's population. The rest of us, about 4 billion and counting are doomed to hell I guess.

    I don't know how anyone could love a god who would do such thing. I mean set up a deal whereby only one in eight goes through the pearly gates and the rest perish. I could easily fear such a god, but love him? Never.

    "We have free will. God knows the day we are born if we are going to hell or not but he lets us choose." What kind of bogus argument is that? He knows but we choose what he knows. Sure.

    But Patrick, I am flaterred by your regard for me and your desire to save me from it all. One can only feel thanks for having such a friend. I like you as well. I just hope that our friendship can survivie our religious differences. It can as far as I am concerned.

    Bob, the Agnostic who continues to question and will do so on my deathbed.
    Oh. I forgot, I am a Deist. :cool:
  10. RedSpey Guest

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    As expected, this is an issue that we all struggle with, and I am glad to know that many here can disagree and still show respect and care for each other. I know that I don't have all the answers, but personally, it's good to know that there are still people who are asking themselves these questions. At times, I ask myself if people even wonder anymore. Alright, flame away.
  11. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
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    As do I and most people. If you really understand who Christ was\is and what his message was\is, you would see that He is the answer to Religion. The cure if you will. Some like to say that Religion is man's attempt at reaching God. Christianity, at it's core, is God reaching out to man. Why are there so many religions? Perhaps because God created us to have a natural drive to seek him out...

    Undeniably? I think that is a little strong, but you have a right to your own passionate opinions. Is there strong evidence? Sure. Compelling? Yes. The best science alone has to offer? Absolutely. But undeniable? I think it is just a matter of perspective.

    Do you know how close we are to pigs?

    It should bother you. As it does me that you think this. Because this is NOT the 'Christian view'. God made all life on Earth. A world full of delicately balanced ecosystems. Man was given dominion over the earth - not to abuse, but to use responsibly, protect, and respect.

    I understand your thoughts on this, and admit there are many questions I have in this area. But I also know that often times the truth is the silly answer. The truth can be the least popular answer. The truth can have the least evidence supporting it. The truth can be down right absurd.


    You can create new species in 1 hr from a petri dish?


    I agree. Clearly they can't ALL be correct... Terrible things have happened in the name of Christianity. Not because the people were 'being Christlike', but because they mixed their religion and politics and were ruled by greed, not by God.

    There are many views as to what Hell is - even among Christians. I don't have an aswer I'm 100% confident in. Christianity is about focusing on Christ, so I don't really dwell on the alternatives often. I, and most Christians I know don't really focus on Hell when telling people about their faith and the message of the Gospel (besides the southern tent revival preachers yelling about fire and brimstone while passing around a hat for their 'collection'...).



    First, our bodies do become worm food - unless of course you are burned to ashes or something... But do we have souls? I think the easy way out, or the easier thing to face, is that everything ends when your body gives out. Sometimes I can't help but realize how much easier life would be if that is what I believed. But I can't deny that I feel in my inner core, that there is something else. That there is a reason for all this. That there is a physical and spritual aspect to life. Besides, how boring would it be when you are camping and staring up at the stars and wondering about the meaning of life and what is out there, and how we got here, and where we are going if there really wasn't some compelling mystery stirring in our hearts and minds.



    No one likes feeling like others are imposing views, laws, ect upon them that are contrary to their own beliefs, morals, etc. But won't there always be someone who feels this way no matter who is in power? As I look at this world and it's history - I'm pretty satisfied with our much flawed, but extremely free system and way of life in the USA.

    I'm troubled by some of his actions. But I'm not the final judge. If he is using his 'faith' as a way to manipulate voters then he truly is a monster. If he is motivated by power and driven by money then he will be held accountable and the Bible is clear on the harsh judgement reserved for such people... If he has made some hard decisions based on what he thought was best for the country, based on the information he was presented, and stayed true to his moral convictions, then perhaps he was misguied and wrong, or perhaps is a really just a good leader (that should ruffle some feathers...).



    The KKK don't know what being Christian really means. For some, it is just a social club and something to do on Sunday. Are all muslims terrorists? Are all environmentalists terrorists?
  12. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
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    "I was a bit chilled but your statement that I would burn in hell for eternity because I didn't come around to the teachings of Christ. Remember that Christians only number about 500 million of the world's population. The rest of us, about 4 billion and counting are doomed to hell I guess.

    I don't know how anyone could love a god who would do such thing. I mean set up a deal whereby only one in eight goes through the pearly gates and the rest perish. I could easily fear such a god, but love him? "

    Actually it doesn't quite work that way. Those who accept Christ will be judged one way (with Christ stepping in for them). Those who reject Christ will be judged another way, and probably not good. Those who never heard the Gospel will be judged yet another way. God is good, perfect, and just. I don't know excactly how he will judge each individual on earth. But I have faith that he will and I have faith that by his very nature - He will do the right thing -even if I don't understand it.
  13. BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    Red Spey--

    Welcome to the board. Even though we are all fly fishermen which might suggest we are all stupid, that is not always the case as you will see. Funny, but these discussions almost always come back to mentioning fishing eventually. Apparently, religion, politics and philosophy are inseperable.

    Chris set this page up so we could rant freely and yet not disturb the true purpose of site. Only one post has beeen censored so far (I have no idea as to why since none was given) and it has become quite popular, outperforming the main page on some days.

    Very envious of your place of residence, Okanagan. You got bass up the ass, trout everywhere, good hunting for big game and upland birds and you have B.C. at your feet.

    But the down side: weird and extreme weather, hayseeds galore and no steelhead to speak of.

    bob, the oh well, you can't win them all. :rofl:
  14. RedSpey Guest

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    I find it interesting that you use the word "undeniably." I deny it based upon science as well. First off, we are primates, I agree, but aren't we also 99% genetically the same as pigs? I like that comparison better, plus the genetic similarity argument doesn't prove either theory: evolution or creative design. Evolution could explain the similarities, but so does a god. Secondly, the age of the earth also has nothing to do with the origins of life. It could be evolution, or it could be a god. Time doesn't matter. Lastly, you can see MICROevolution in a petri dish, but never MACROevolution. We definitely see variations within species, but never an evolutionary process between species or into another species. And we still have yet to find that fossil in the fossil record. We have even tried to force mutation into living beings (i.e. fruit flies), but every time we try to evolve a subject, it dies from the mutation, it does not become more adept at survival. Even though Dr. Darwin theorized we would find millions of examples of macroevolution in the fossil record, we have yet to find one clear example. All this being said, I think "undeniable" was too strong a word. What we all, religious and non-religious, is work to objectively find the answer that best explains the DATA (not the conclusion) with the LEAST (not none) amount of difficulties.

    I agree with you that simply because the world is beautiful it proves God created it is not a valid argument either. But neither does your statement, "based upon the above premise..." prove the opposite, that evolution is the most fantastic force on earth. Be careful, I fear that just as some were raised by Christians to ignore science and logic, you may need to be careful that your upbringing does not lead you to do the same.

    Yes, but what does it have to do with whether something is true or not?

    Just our writing to this board to share our opinions prove your point. We write because we feel we need to be heard...because I am important and my view is important. I have no doubt about that premise. But why do humans have this deep need? Just a thought. I now we're pushing philosophy and religion (really ask the same questions) to points where we cannot, with certainty, answer them. I will be pleased to find the answer that explains the most data with the least amount of difficulties.

    I don't know, I'd rather be worm food than punished eternally. It may be just as much faith to believe in non-existence after death than it is to believe in heaven or hell. Besides, we all have a sense of justice, too (take the most tolerant person on earth, punch him in the face and take his wallet. I bet he becomes intolerant of your behavior quickly. I know, not a strong argument, but shows we all have a sense of justice that biological macroevolution gives no meaning).

    As expected, this is an issue that we all struggle with, and I am glad to know that many here can disagree and still show respect and care for each other. I know that I don't have all the answers, but personally, it's good to know that there are still people who are asking themselves these questions. At times, I ask myself if people even wonder anymore. Alright, flame away.
  15. Kalm Member

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    Cheney, The Dry Side
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    After reading Patrick's post to Bob about going to hell, I was dismayed bawling: . He seemed pretty sure of where Bob was heading, and since my feelings on religion are similar to Bob's I figured that's it, I better convert, or else. But after reading Chadk's position I'm feeling much better :thumb: You mean to say we still have a chance, even if we don't convert? Wahoo ptyd But just in case, Bob and I are counting on you guys to keep us informed in the event that circumstances change. Kind of an "in case of apocalypse, break glass, and tell 'em you're with Pwoens and chadk. :p
  16. Kalm Member

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    Cheney, The Dry Side
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    In fact, I'm still grinning at the notion of Bob and I arriving to heaven and you guys thinking "how in the hell did those two get in here?" :rofl:
  17. redwoods r. surdyk

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    after reading most of the replys I think its great that people can discuss something so contraversial as religous belief without name calling or writing in capitals [if you will]. I am a person who believes in god. I also believe that even if you dont and you live by the "golden rule" this world will be a lot better place for all. it has been proven that the second you die your body instantly becomes 1/16 oz lighter, is this your soul? this is for each to decide as far as killing native fish that to me should be considered a sin punishable by death!!!!
  18. RedSpey Guest

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    Bob,

    Thanks for the welcome! I do live close to some great lakes to fish, but I really miss the steelhead from the Oregon coast. I'm relatively new to fly fishing (have never fished with another fly fisherman, so haven't learned much, now who's the stupid one?!) :D

    Anytime you're up here to fish, let me know. That goes for anyone of you on the site. I'd love to fish if I've got the time. Also, a trip to B.C. would be great. I haven't been up there yet.

    Again, thanks for the warm welcome, Bob. It's a pleasure to be part of this community.

    RedSpey, the one with the strange name considering he hasn't ever held a spey rod
  19. Roper Idiot Savant

    Posts: 4,285
    Glenraven Ranch
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    Has anyone considered that all religions might just be correct? Think about this, just as humans evolve, their ability to comprehend a higher power evolves also. If one looks at history, there have been many "prophets". Each one spoke to there being one "God".
    I find it hard to believe that all the humans that came before or never heard of any one prophet might be doomed to "hell". But I can see that the "All Mighty" might have issues with those that have heard and not followed. I believe we are here to learn, and if we don't get it right the first time around there's gonna be Remedial Life 101. Is this reincarnation? Not sure. Afterlife? Not sure either.

    But I am still learning...and trying to get it right the first time around...
  20. Old Man Just an Old Man

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    I can't hardly believe it,this thread has more reads than Bob has posts. Bob you should be feeling bad about all of this. A simple post about somebody that doesn't exist except in our/yours minds. I for one don't believe in one great being and also I find it hard to believe in what the bible is all about.

    I've had church stuff beat into me as a kid but as I got older I find that all was taught me isn't like it should be. So I have went the other way. I'm not knocking religion. It's just not what I believe in.

    Jim