On religion and such

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by BOBLAWLESS, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. Noah's ark:
    75'x450'x45' Total cubic feet 1,518,000 equal to the capacity of 569 modern rail stock cars.
    Because there were only a few large animals dinosaurs and elephants, wooly mammoths and many many more smaller animals rodents and such. Assume the average size of a sheep and the ark would hold 50,000 animals. If every species of land animal was represented scientists believe that that there were about 17,500 species on earth. including all the ones that are now extinct.
    35,000 animals on the ark plenty of room for food and supplies for Noah and his family.
    As far as the ark being maneuverable it was almost exactly the proportions of todays supertankers and it did not have to move about just float.
    Don't be confused by the facts Bob. Do the math.
    jesse clark
  2. Word, Lisa.

    I enjoy the way I fish. It is legal. And I wish others would respect me and leave me to fish as I please. I don't bother them and I only ask for the same in return. I want to make decisions about abortion, birth control, euthanasia, etc. without others forcing me to do something I don't want to do. Yet they do it in a heart beat.

    They say it is because it is the right thing to do and I must do the right thing according to them. Often they quote the bible-something I don't believe in.

    I don't ask them to not believe in it. I let them decide that. Why not make these decisions on your own, those that affect your life and leave me alone. I don't need your morality. I have my own. I just need you to stay out of my business.

    Bob. the About all I want is peace. :ray1:
  3. Roper

    Too bad the Pagans (whoever they are) didn't have a written language, you could quote something on heaven and hell...

    Pagan is a christian term to classify all nonchristians and jews. People at the time that practiced these religions did not name themselves. Their religions were simple beliefs that were handed down in families. Most of the written works were in art work or journals, they did not share information outside of their small groups. You would find slightly different practices from village to village. Most if not all written journals and art work were destroyed by christians. Most pagan covens have been taught off of practices that were taught generation to generation and then written down later in the 1800s. I too wish that we had written works from those times, but just as all of the pagan beliefs were twisted by the catholic church, so were their written works.
  4. My friends, I have really enjoyed this great discussion here, and am glad I had time to read over all of the great insights shared to this point. As one of the more vocal “board Christians,” I feel like weighing in on a few things.

    I hold Bob in the highest regard as an intellectual, and really appreciate his starting this thread, because I don’t think he did it to belittle Christians (not that anyone said he did). On the contrary, I think he did it out of the same seeker’s heart that we all have, or that we had before we got hurt.

    Behind the context of many of these posts, I hear the voices of past hurts. On the upside, some of these sound like hurts that have been healed by God – wherever the speaker has found Him. On the downside, some sound like hurts that have been inflicted in the name of the Church, in the name of God, and that’s a real heartbreaker for me. Our God is the God of Love, his love is unconditional, and that should always been the big headline in boldface print. I know it isn’t sometimes. I know that sometimes over history, and right now today, people do bad stuff in the name of God. In the words of Jesus, “Father forgive them, they know not what they do.” Friends, forgive them, they know not what they’ve done. The Lord loves his creation unconditionally, which extends to all his people. God loves you (you).

    Please believe me, that on the whole, Christians are a good bunch. If you just can’t buy that, have the courage or curiosity or conviction – or whatever - to join me in church some Sunday. Come a couple times. Let me introduce you to my friends there, who are loving and accepting and kind, and fun, and imperfect, like you. You might not stick around for the long haul, but I promise, you’ll change your perspective on “who we are,” if you are willing to come with an open mind.

    The Church is not a place for perfect people, it’s a hospital. In order to get to be in the “Body of Christ,” one has to say, “Lord, I’m not perfect, and I need your help to get better.” So it’s a hospital, a place where we go to get healed, to grow better, to improve ourselves, in the name of something bigger than ourselves. Who can fault us for that? Who can fault me for that?

    I hear a lot of responses that say what Church is or what God is or what the Bible says by people who don’t know, because they don’t go. I don’t mean disrespect or belittlement by saying that, only – how do you know? (I do not like Green Eggs and Ham, I do not like them Sam I Am.)

    I’ve heard the church chastised by Christians and non-Christians alike. To my Brothers and Sisters – let’s invest our energy in fixing up this Body we have, not tearing it down. There’s work to be done, this meant to be an all-hands-on deck kind of project. To everybody outside the church who has raised the valid points and accurate problems with it, please know that these mistakes are the result of the people – imperfect humans - acting on their will. In stark contrast, the God above is the God of Creation, the God of Love. I’m so grateful to Him for extending forgiveness to us, those of us who have screwed up in his name. Can you extend a little grace, too? We’re a work in progress.

    This is a great conversation being held, I’m grateful to be able to participate in it. But there’s only so far that a large-group conversation like this can go. I always want to extend the invitation to carry it on offline, one on one, if you (you) want. PM me, or give me a call. We can hook up for a coffee, or a beer (although I stop at one) or fling a fly, and you can ask me stuff if you want, and I don’t have it all figured out, but by the grace of God, I might be able to answer a question or two. And maybe I could ask you a thing or two, too. And I bet I’d learn from you. There’s nothing under the heavens that I enjoy discussing more than this stuff, and that’s no lie. But then, maybe my world is a little like Norman MacLean’s, where “There is no clear division between religion and fly fishing.”

    Humbly, humbly.

  5. Jesse ....please....by current estimates there are between 8 and 30 million species of insect alone and last I checked, they were land animals. Some estimates (research in Panama by Dr. Erwin) have the estimate as a high as 50 million. Where on earth did 17,500 critters come from?

    The bugs alone would fill several arks.

    And Noah collected all of them in a few weeks INCLUDING DINOSAURS...I'm going back to my opium theory!

    In all sincerity...thank you.

    Will you also pray for Mathew Sheppard who was beaten and left to die...and for my gay uncle who was abandoned by friend and family, all good church going folk, and drank himself to death...and my gay brother who is persecuted, by the same good church going folk, for what he is.
  6. I honestly think the only "converting" attempts I've seen in this thread have been on the part of the nonbelievers. No unbelievers have been asked to a church -edit: bad on me, I missed one. Nobody's been asked to try someone's particular brand of religion. Nobody's been asked to accept Jesus into their life.
    However, for the non-christians (that's who started the thread in the 1st place), People post questions that they really don't want the answers to, but only wait for a response so they'll have an excuse to pounce on and make fun of biblical beliefs. While the christians have simply tried to give an honest answer to questions posed. Unbelievers ask questions about the bible, and then rant and rave because someone gives a biblical answer. Well, you asked for it. Ask me about my Ford and I'll refer to the Ford Chiltons Manual. I'm actually not offended because I really think many are so used to blaming the religion called christianity for all their woes, that they really don't notice their own personal guile and bitterness.

    BTW, by the end of the first century A.D., all the apostles and disciples that were around after Jesus' ascension & the day of pentecost...had either died or turned away from the faith. Their was no real functioning church for a LONG time. Only scattered remnants holding onto shreds of truth that eventually got watered down by outside pagan doctrine. That's what the bible says of its own believers. Now, you can go tell me that there was a large "christian" church that did these deeds or did those attrocities. Historically, yes, there were groups of people that called themselves christians that did a lot of stuff. There were probably people that had your same last name that did a lot of stuff too. But, biblically, the true church was nigh dead. It's a great wonder we ever made it throught the dark ages with any bible left. We almost didn't.
    BTW2- "Christian" is not a name christians gave themselves. It was a semi-mocking label given to the followers of Jesus Christ in the first century. I could really care less if a person associates me with christianity or not. God didn't coin the term, nor the religion. That there are "christian" attrocities, that there are "christian" rivalries, sects, oppositions, etc....really doesn't change God, the Father of Jesus Christ one bit. It all really only fulfils what Jesus said would happen. Jesus promised that many false teachers would come "in my name". He promised that false prophets (that's Christian ones too) would rise, wax worse and worse, and would deceive many. So all your rantings about christian discord are really true and I couldn't agree with you more.
    Thanks all for the interesting talk. I'm gonna step outta this one. Not because of any offense taken or intended, just because it's gettin' kinda pointless really -refer to my 1st post. Anybody can PM or email of course for honest discussion.
  7. this Noah's ark thing and the Flood have kept me up many a night. I am a geologist by profession and a Christian by faith.

    I am sorry, but there is just very little physical evidence for the flood and Noah's inclusion of every animal, despite what few so-called "scientific studies" may say. I honestly wish there was; it would make my harmonizing easier. But I have accepted the fact that the scriptures are not science text books, and vice versa. Maybe I am a naive Christian, but I tend to take a figuritive interp. on many things, Noah's ark being the prime example.

    I personally think that it is noble to ask such poignant questions regarding God, creation, our purpose, what comes next, etc. I also don't think we have to be 100% correct; I just think that it is wonderful we are willing to take the time to ponder such meaningful matters. I personally believe "God" really respects that.

    Lastly, I enjoy attending church meetings throughout the week; it give me an opportunity to serve others, be served by others, and learn to be less selfish and a better person. I feel very close to the God I worship when I am outdoors, fishing, or having one of the those father-son moments in nature; however, attending regular organized religious meetings allows me to share with others. Afterall, this site is case in point, how we can learn and teach each other.

    Although I sometimes consider myself misanthropogenic, and think life would better without that annoying neighbor or enviornmental abuser I always have the misfortune of camping next to, I actually like people and get a lot out of being around them. Organized religion and the principles of Christ's teachings stress this interpersonal importance. "People are more important than things" (Stephen R. Covey---I think:)

    Thanks for the civil dialog. I really respect you people.

  8. cmtundra,

    I have not heard any non-christians come and actually try to convert anyone. They do make round about comments to the fact, but so do the christians.

    The Catholic church was organized around 300 AD. It was at that time that they sought to wipe out the pagans. It was not the pagans that watered down christianity. They shared their beliefs only amongst themselves, they held them very closely to close villages or family groups. Those that were seeking out to destroy and water down the christian beliefs were the Jews and Romans. Who by the way are not pagan. It amazes me how anyone that is not christian or jewish must be pagan. Though as I said earlier that in a lot of libraries and reference material they list it as that, but pagans do not feel that way.


    I enjoyed your post. I completely agree. I'll tell you what- you come and light a candle in my coven and I will more than happily sit in your church. As I said before, I nothing against christians. I have walked with you. Are you willing to walk with me to better understand me?

  9. I feel exactly the same way...I just don't put a name to it, I accept it for the wonder that it is and try to understand the why. Simply saying "it is God" is not enough...there is more to it and I need to understand.

    If, when it is all said and done, it really is God, I'll feel better about my conclusions having done the homework...most christians I meet aren't willing to do the homework and I guess that's what bothers me the most.

    Lisa...as we both know, every major christian holiday was stolen from pagan holidays...Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25th, it was a pagan solstice holiday, the Easter bunny was the spring festival of fertility (hence the egg). Pagans were assimilated...kinda like the Borg!
  10. Ok, in all seriousness I have a question :ray1:

    Actually a couple

    What if you pick the wrong one?


    All seem to pretty much agree there is only ONE "God".right?

    can't have 300 Gods can we?

    From what has happened over religion throughout history I could not even possibly see, say a Palestinian God letting a Jewish person into the playground.

    If a person is a card carrying, pew pounding,snake kissin,do everything right member of whatever religion you chose then....

    what if god is of one of the other religions ?

    Beyond seeming dumb it just seems like pretty poor odds you would pick the right one.

    For picking the wrong one I am doomed to an eternity of a glass of gin , no shaker, no ice and very toasty toes?

    Jesse, Tundra, BobbyL, Lisa, and all others I am leaving out but not forgetting, you have seriously enlightened me and I thank you.
  11. Davy, my friend, please don't attribute remarks or beliefs to me that I have never stated nor do not share. I am not necessarily monotheistic. There could be a committee of gods as the Greeks and Romans thought. I don't have an enough information to rule that thought out. The bible says there is but one god but, again, what does that prove when the bible itself has never been proven.

    If you lilke religion, then go for it. For me, it has never met any of my needs so I don't go. I have never tried to convert anyone to my beliefs because I'm not sure of them enough to do that. But I have and will continue to question the beliefs of others. I will continue to ask others, including some Muslims who have declared a jihad on me and want my balls toasted over and open fire and some Christians who want to change my life and take over my thinking, to leave me alone. I have a right to be me.

    I hope there is a god but I suspect that there is not. Yet, a famous scientist recently claimed that he believed in a creator of some sort because he could think of no other reasonable theory to explain the origins of the known and unknown world. So I'll go with him until something else comes up.

    You guys that are working on Noah's boat, remember that he had to save the plants as well. There are 30,000 known orchid species alone with another 30,000 suspected but not yet discovered or named. And that's just orchids!. Memebers of the sunflower family are also very numerous. Let's face it, the ark idea is impossible and like most things in the bible it is open to a thousand interpretations as to what was actually meant by it.

    But it always sort of chaps my ass when people pontificate about it and suggest that their idea is the true and only one. I see the bible as a book of poems maybe. These poems suggest things that may be helpful to guide our lives. Some are for the good; others have been used in a very dark manner that actually is harmful to our quest for peace. Someday I may come out with my own version.

    Bob, the May peace and blessings be upon your name. :thumb:
  12. Hey Davy,

    One thing that really made Jesus stand out as the one and only true God was simply his 12 disciples, as mentioned above. These disciples followed him and stood by his side, until his crucifiction. After his crucifiction, they ran, they hid, they even denied him publicly. However, after his resurection, every single one of them came out of hiding and stood with the most boldness possible. 11 of the 12 died a martyrs death. Now these disciples were humans like you and me. I know I would not be willing to die for a lie. Point being, these disciples had to of seen Jesus' resurection to change them as drastic as they changed.

    There have been prophets before and after Jesus, but none of them have claimed his claims or worked his works. No one has even come close.

    Instead of constantly bashing the bible and its validity with your personal theories, disprove it Bob. I study the bible on a regular basis and have yet to find something that is unbelievable or even questionable.

    True Bob. However, please remember who started this thread. You are an intelligent man and you knew full on what would happen as you were typing the opening thread. I did not come knocking on your door, you came knocking on mine.

    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

    Hey Dave,

    I will most certainly pray for the things you requested. :thumb: As the bible says, love the sinner, despise the sin. This all ties back in with my other post.
  13. Well, it's been interesting reading and catching up. It's interesting that this thread seems to be primarily for or against Christianity. Either your a pagan/aethiest/whatever or you have accepted Christ as your personal saviour. Just goes to show you how myopic we Americans can be.

    Personally, I believe in a higher power, one I choose to call God. I believe God to be compassionate and loving. I don't neccessarily believe there is a literal heaven or hell. I know that we were put here to learn. I don't have all the answers, but I know God is there. Our ego is what keeps us from God, and those around us. Those of you that are "searching" need to do so with your eyes and minds open. Open to the possibility that God is real. Otherwise, quit wasting your time. If you don't believe, you don't believe. Just don't ask us to not believe by debating what is written in the Bible. The Bible is not the only "record" of God. You need to start debating the Quran and other writings too. Or are you just against Christ...?

    Know yourself, know what you are "for or against". Ask yourself if it is just and compassionate. Then live it "faithfully". :thumb:
  14. BOBLAWLESS- If I ever attributed anything to you I am sure I was mistaken,so all I can say is " my mistake".

    I am not sure where you think I attributed anything to you though. :confused:

    I merely and graciously thanked you ,along with the others commenting, for the insights. sorry ,I guess

    Another part of your post is tremendously incorrect as well.Or maybe it was just sarcasm you were using.


  15. Posted by Roper: "Or are you just against Christ...?"

    This reminded me of something I had a discussion on a while back. It seems that most people don't have a problem with Christ. That is to say, they are not offended that he worked miracles and healed the sick and the lame etc. Many people do have problems with the church. I think people have started to look at the church as Christ (which we actually should be), but as a whole, the church is still anything but perfect. People fail to see Christ as Christ and the church as being only a representation of Him. It is the responsibility of Christians to reflect Him correctly through the church body... and I apologize sincerely on behalf of the church to anyone who has been offended by our lack of "Christlikeness"
    Man- all this heavy stuff makes me want to go fishing...anybody want to pick me up from the UW saturday?!?
  16. Not at all...

    I am against the intolerance and cruelty to others practiced by his followers.

    I'm against being looked at as someone who needs to be "saved".

    I'm against the Bush administration.

    I'm against TBN.

    I'm against tax free status for churches tht get involved with political issues.

    I'm against Ralph Reed, Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwell.

    I'm against Osama Bin Laden.

    I'm against the desacration of the natural world that I worship.

    I'm sure Christ was a fine fellow and a great teacher...but millions of his students are failing.
  17. How is it you all seem to zoom in on "are you just against Christ"?

    That was the least of my points. There is more to God than Christianity. But you all seem to have that in your sights and debates.

    So, Fire, Ready, Aim...
  18. I have read the bible several times and I find it interesting as a book. I do like the old testament as it is quite interesting as it has lots of action but the new testement is on the dry side.

    If Adam and Eve were to be the first persons on earth and have kids. Where did Cain go and find his wife at. No, he didn't make it with one of his sisters as at the time he killed his brother he didn't have any sisters. From what I read was that he(Cain) went out among the multidues(sp)(people). And where did the other people come from.

    No, from what I get out of the Bible is that it is an interesting read. Like you all are saying that the ark wasn't big enough for all living things. And if all died in the flood who wrote all of the pages beyond the flood. I guess that all of us are related. Hi all my brothers and sisters.

    This is a good thread as there is no name calling but BOB did you have to really start this. Were you bored and needed to talk to people. And how's the wife?

  19. This VOID is pretty featureless, boring, and downright lonely. Think We'll have us a Big Bang and lose ourselves in the funhouse. Wait! Hear me out! It'll be a grand and limitless illusion ....we'll forget who we are as we slow our vibrations into energy and become/create a Universe. We'll work it out as we go, fill every niche, explore every avenue, and it will be everchanging, always new, and Yes, we will forget who we are. It will seems strange and frightening, joyous and intriguing, us always in the process of becoming and continuously changing and morphing and metamorphing in a Cosmic Dance of Energy....
    We will get caught up in our illusion, lose our awareness in the sheer terror of the passion play, and be subject to all of the logical natural laws we come up with that are necessary to create this universe. We will become "lost in the funhouse" (to borrow a phrase from a strange creature called a human being and more specifically one who called himself a writer and lived on planet Earth in the futurepast). We will become ensnarled in incredible dramas, perform incredible acts, and go where it all takes us! We will Love, Hate, Fear, and Wonder...every nuance of emotion will be experienced! This Here/Now/Beingness will be fun...so lets go! Ripple in Still Waters!
    Remember, there are No Guarantees, except that you will experience and be experienced.
    The funniest things will be the human explanations of it all...We'll howl with delight at some of the absurdities some of us come up with. Oh yeah...forget who you are in the trauma of birth....get an "identity," lose yourself in the Funhouse, and dig it, do it, love it, fall in Love, learn to Hate, hate to wait, make love to it, lose it, hang on to it, beat it into a sword and then into a plowshare and then into a philosophy so we can beat each other to tears with words and eventually come to blows and then laugh or cry about it all later or sooner, if you prefer, and I need a better transistor and What the H...let it all go. Wonder.
    Maybe find yourself standing in a river one day, contemplating some conundrum and trying to fool another one of us (who is masquerading as a trout in this incarnation) into biting a bit of feathers 'n fur, just as we continuously fool ourselves in this eternal dance....What Fun! Thou art that!
    ........mysterious infinite changeling! C'mon...Lets go!

    And someone will come along and try to tell you how it is. Walk On!

    Jimbo :beer2: temporarily bio-camming for Mind
  20. DSHS hasn't signed my consulting contract yet so I can't go back to work...I'm going fising.

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