On religion and such

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by BOBLAWLESS, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. Inland,
    You must fish the Clearwater. I've only fished the Clearwater once, but Coyote Fishnet is one fine looking drift. Unfortunately, despite numerous trips through it, we came up empty (while the gear guys w/ corkies did quite well). Someday I hope to return and take another crack at that river. A friend and colleague grew up on the Lapwai reservation and his parents live in a beautiful home overlooking the Clearwater. At the base of their canyon is a lovely drift we named Wilson's drift. Never got to fish it because the whole time we were there people were at that drift EARLY. That's nice country down there...particularly if you like to steelhead.

  2. Huh? Whats this? Fishing talk on a Religion Website?!

    Next thing you know they will be talking about techniques and favorite waters, rods, flylines and such! :eek:
  3. Whoops! Dont' want to be accused of starting a controversy ;)
  4. Heathen! :thumb:
  5. you called?
  6. Oh, I thought he was talking about me. :thumb:
  7. BR:

    Since I am the author of the post that so astounded you (post #100), I will drop you a PM and cite at least three different posts that preceded mine which evoked my remark. You need to do better research before you rebut something with an assertion not warranted by evidence which is very clearly written and plain to see.

    Bob, the Man of whom you so love to ruffle his feathers. :mad:
  8. I guess the person that came up with the saying Nobody ever shot Santa Claus never met you, Bob! :eek:
  9. But aren't you guilty of the same thing that you complain Christian's are doing to you?

  10. Cactus:

    How many cups are we talking here? Christians are killing the wild steelhead? ????

    Bob the :confused:
  11. This is a fun read...

  12. Nice little story Dave. Sounds like the typical 'enlightened' university professor picking a fight with a well intentioned (but a little naive about the world) college freshman. He must have been really proud of himself. LOL
    She probably new exactly what to say, but was so astounded at his ignorant and spiteful comments, she just had to back off...

    "Then I said, you tell me god will forgive me, BUT WHO WILL FORGIVE GOD? .... You say your god is all-knowing, all-good and loving, all-powerful. This would imply that he knows the suffering, has the power to stop it or change it, and yet does nothing, ..."

    It is pretty simple really. It goes back to the concept of 'free will'. If God were a 24X7 baby sitter, or created a 'perfect' world full of robots who did the 'right thing' all the time, etc, it would not be 'free will'. And as I said before, we would not have real and compelling choices. God HAS to allow people to choose and act in evil ways. Without evil, death, pain, sadness - we would not really know good, life, joy, and happiness. God does not DO those things Himself, but he HAS to allow them. In his BIG PICTURE point of view -where the innocent or those who pass His righteous judgment will live with Him in heaven for eternity, the pain and suffering on this world are but a spec in time.

    Anyway, I could go on on, but I getta go...
  13. This is my beliefs on statements like this one.

    God originally created a perfect place for man to fellowship (hang out) with Him. (Garden of Eden)

    Man then became greedy, and decided to see if there was more than what God was offering to him. (Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, so they could have the knowledge of good and evil.)

    Because of their actions, the ground was cursed. Man must now work the land "through painful toil."

    This is my paraphrase of the first couple of chapters in the book of Genesis. How I interpret these passages, is that man turned his back on God. Because of the knowledge we now posses we get to experience everything the world has to offer. This includes earthquakes and diseases, as well as the beauty of fishing that secret hole. I have yet to find any passeges in the Bible that exempts anyone from the hardships and evil that are in the world. I have though found passages letting us know that we will experience them. The 23rd Psalm reads:
    4 Even though I walk
    through the valley of the shadow of death,
    I will fear no evil,
    for you are with me;
    your rod and your staff,
    they comfort me.
    I'd like to highlight the word "through." We have to go through the bad stuff in this world. The good news is that God is willing to walk with anyone that asks him.

    I don't see much difference between this and telling a child not to touch a stove because it is hot. Does this make the parent evil, is the child decides to touch it?
  14. dmoocher --

    I thought you were all about science and facts – empirical evidence and demonstrable proof. If I didn’t know better, I’d think you were beginning to venture into the realm of philosophy. That’s alright, though. Philosophy, as a discipline, gets scant attention these days, which is a pity. Some of History’s greatest thinkers never set foot inside the lab. Socrates, Plato, Cicero, Voltaire, Locke . . . Darwin's work, when you really examine it, was more philosophy than science.

    I suspect the conversation you posted never really took place. Or, more likely, it took place in some form, but the final product is what the author came up with the next day, saying, “Dang! That’s what I should have said!” (happens to me everyday – which is why I love the edit function on this board). Even so, it’s very believable. I am quite certain I have sent one or two Jehovah’s Witnesses away from my door a little confused about their doctrine.

    What I hope you realize is that the questions you are raising are not novel. From Aurelius Augustinus to C.S. Lewis and beyond, these questions have been asked and answered ad nauseam by minds far greater than yours or mine. The answers are not pat or simple, of course (they never are in philosophy), but they are quite satisfactory. If you have genuine interest in how suffering can exist in a world supposedly created by a good and loving God, I recommend for your reading, The Problem of Pain, by C.S. Lewis. At the very least, his analysis is more intellectually stimulating than your clever friend in the emergency room.
  15. BR...I appologize for not referencing the source....I got this from this Pantheist site on the web. This is from a 48 year old former Catholic nun (if you can believe her) who could not find the answers whe was looking for.

    As far as Science and facts...yes I do...that's why I keep searching...I haven't resigned my self to attributing everything I don't understand to "Gods will".

    Neither one of us is going to convince the other and I'm not attempting to convince you of anything...I'm illustrating that there are others that have the same issues, concerns and questions that I do and we believe that those who seem to have all the answers...don't. BTW: I love C.S Lewis.

    I'll let Galilleo sum it up for me...
    Chad...What free will is there in a Tsunami, cholera, malaria...people have free will to choose Diptheria?... or is the old testament God reaking some old time vengance?

    I recall some christian leaders saying the Tsunami was God smiting the Swedish sodomites vacationing in Indonesia...talk about collateral damage!
  16. Guys: No one is going to change their views reading a website. I have basically chosen to not get involved in these discussions anymore (but can't help myself sometime). The Eastside lakes are open, the Yakima is fishing well, OP Stellhead are on fire; Let's get back to the Fishing Forum. 100+ posts just screams ENOUGH!
  17. I agree...we can continue this over some irish coffee around a campfire at Reds!
  18. Ahhh...good ole discussions on religion.

    Like many others I don't think this conversation can ever go anywhere, but it can lead to an understanding between the two sides of the coin....and hopefully lead to full understanding that there aren't two sides, because it isn't a black and white issue.

    I was raised going to Church...being a fiesty analytical type that was big into history and philosophy, I made up my own mind fairly young that it wasn't for me. Not religion or faith per se, but the idea of organized religion. Everyone shares some level of faith about how things came to be, and whether or not there is a higher power.

    One of my favorite "South Park" moments is a scene at the gates of Heaven.
    "The correct answer was...Mormon." Classic.

    “Believe nothing.
    No matter where you read it,
    Or who said it,
    Even if I have said it,
    Unless it agrees with your own reason
    And your own common sense.”

    Ahhh...the Buddah. Fishing is my meditation.

    I agree very much with Campblade that the Christians around me don't bring it up, and don't try to convert me....

    There are the minority however that do. They come to my door. They impede my progress at the airport. They open "schools" in impovershed lands. They tell me what is right and wrong. They are on T.V. preaching hell fire, asking for money, and lifting logs. (Ever seen that?)

    "The God I believe in isn't short of cash mister."
    I starting listening to U2 about the same time I started reading the buddah.

    My beliefs are simple. I believe I know the difference between right and wrong, and I can live my life making good decisions every day. I believe that at the end of my days I can look back and say I was a good person, that I helped others and treated them with respect.

    I'd like to believe in a higher power, but the bible reads to me as a good story. When was it written? What % is fiction? What happened during the dark ages? I'll get answers, but no proof. There is no solid proof to the side of evolution either, but the science is more compelling to me than the faith of others.

    Where I do absolutely draw the line and get fired up is at the conservative right attempting to dictate how I live my life through influence in the government or unrequested sermons. I believe that if organized religion could rule themselves and let those of other religions (or lack thereof) live how they see fit, we could truly acheive tolerance. I won't hold my breath.

    To organized religion: Rule your own house. I didn't invite you into mine, and I don't tell you how to live your life.

    To 99% of those within organized religion: Welcome, make yourself at home.
  19. "Chad...What free will is there in a Tsunami, cholera, malaria...people have free will to choose Diptheria?... or is the old testament God reaking some old time vengance?"

    The second question is easier. We are no longer living in the 'old testement era', so the answer is 'no'...

    How do you pupose God handle issues like disease, car accidents, fires, earth quakes, without violating the freedom of choice (free will)? While we do not choose to be victims, we know that bad things happen. Should God wrap a protective bubble around each person?

    The Bible tells us that God is our heavenly Father. A father loves his children and does not want them to suffer. But he can't make all their decisions and he has to let them experience life on their own at some point. People learn from experiences - bad and good. How can there be compassion without suffering? Hate without love? Success without failure?

    I often think of Paul writing from prison. Some of the most inspiring and hope filled writings I have ever read come from Paul who was beaten, chased out of towns, nearly stoned to death, and thrown in prison just for telling people that Jesus rose from the dead and offers salvation.

    Even in the toughest times we can have hope and a promise that God is with us - and when it is over, we will be with Him where there will be no pain and suffering. Christ himself was beaten, spit on, humiliated, and crucified. When I go through hard times I know God can relate and will see me through it.

    By the way, how does karma explain pain and suffering of children? What comes around goes around??

    By the way, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm just answering questions that have been asked and responding to statements made. I don't think any less of anyone who thinks differently than me...
  20. Anyone can field this one....
    Why did God change between the old and new testaments and you have to admit...he changed a "heck" of a lot. He seemed to mellow after his son was killed...or is it people just interpreted his word differently...meaning all the religious leaders in the old testament killed people for no reason, and killing people is against the 10 Commandments meaning the ancient tribes of Israel are now burning in hell? So why can't we just toss the old testament?

    I am very curious how this can be reconciled in good conscience.?

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