On religion and such

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by BOBLAWLESS, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. jessejames Flyslinger

    Posts: 1,863
    Show Low, Arizona
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    I am sorry Dave I can not even read anymore of your stuff. I just can't stand reading it and looking at that Catfish bobber. There is no way that a person with that as an avatar has any credibility at all. :hmmm:
    jesse clark
  2. estill Member

    Posts: 85
    Tacoma, WA, USA.
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    Not necessarily - The old testament has detailed instructions for different sacrifices. Depending on the ritual, animal, time of year, etc, you could earn "forgiveness" (I'm not sure of the exact word) for violating laws, and the 10 Commandments.

    No, the old testament describes why things are the way they are in the new testament. In other words, it was prophesized who the Christ would be long before Jesus was born. Without that description, we cannot be sure Jesus was who he said he was.

    Reconciliation is a poor choice of words, in my opinion. The new testament and Jesus is the fulfillment of the promises God made to the Jews throughout the old testament. The way I read things; God gave the Jews a set of rules that were difficult to follow. The Jew took those rules, misinterpretted, and added to them. As God watched them struggle with these laws, He came up with a plan to get them out from under themselves. Ultimately Jesus was the fulfillment of this plan. Maybe letting the Jews struggle for all of those years was a form of tough love. I don't know what God is/was thinking.

    Jesus didn't change much concerning God's law. In fact he was able to summarize it up quite nicely. This is from Matthew chapter 22 versus 36-40.

    What Jesus changed was our ability to achive forgiveness. According to Jesus, all we have to do is ask for it. He even took it beyond the Jews and opened it up to the entire world.
  3. Randy Knapp Active Member

    Posts: 1,132
    Warm Springs, Virginia, USA.
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    First, I would like to say that "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis would be a great read for most of you as it is written by one of the brightest minds of the 20th Century and argues for a Christian world view without reference to the Bible.

    Second, I always enjoyed this little piece by John Wesley:

    The Bible must be the invention either of good men or angels, bad men or devils, or of God.

    1. It could not be the invention of good men or angels, for they neither would nor could make a book and tell lies all the time they were writing it, saying, "thus saith the Lord" when it was their own invention.

    2. It could not be the invention of bad men or devils, for they could not make a book which commands all duty, forbids all sins, and condemns their own souls to Hell for all eternity.

    3. Therefore, draw the conclusion that the Bible must be given by Divine inspiration.

    I am a believer, a Christian, and I appreciate the comments on both sides in this forum. I also appreciate Chris for allowing the space to share our thoughts. I, too, consider myself to be an educated person with some common sense thrown in, and would be willing to answer questions through personal contact if this forum is a bit too scattered.

    Randy
  4. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
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    "Why did God change between the old and new testaments and you have to admit...he changed a "heck" of a lot."

    God didn't change -the 'covenant' changed (the agreement\relationship changed).

    Jesus said "I come not to abolish the law, but to fullfil it".

    As 'the law' was fullfilled in Jesus, it opened the door for all mankind to enter in a relationship with God. It was no longer about trying to be a 'good person' or trying to do the 'right things' - being a religious person basically. It was now about having faith in God through Jesus Christ.

    The old testement is a pointer to the much needed and anticipated messiah. The new testement is: the Gospel \ Good news = announcing the messiah and the covenant through Jesus. After the first 4 books telling who Jesus is (the fortold messiah), the next book, Acts tells us about the days and weeks after his death\resurection. The final books are there to give guidance to the church going forward.
  5. Jason Baker Member

    Posts: 776
    Ft. Mill, SC
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    Hey, listen to this guy!
  6. sean Member

    Posts: 112
    Seattle,WA
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    Thou shalt not lie :rofl:
  7. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
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    I just spent 3 days and 2 nights fishing on the east side. I'm just trying to get all that good fishing and quality time with my son off my mind :rofl:
  8. dmoocher Member

    Posts: 262
    Olympia, Wa.
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    It's a perch bobber not a catfish bobber...it's obvious we'll never agree on anything! :beer2:
  9. BOBLAWLESS New Member

    Posts: 2,879
    Port Ludlow, WA, USA.
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    Wht pisses me off, Dave, is that you keep getting this bite, or should I say "nibble", and yet you fail to do anything about it. If you don't strike soon, all your worm is going to chewed off by that perch. I say let him have it and hope for the best. Are you talking yellow perch?

    Bob, the I've caught a few perch but thankfully not many. :rolleyes:
  10. dmoocher Member

    Posts: 262
    Olympia, Wa.
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    I hate to switch gears in a theology forum and start talking fishing...
    I have wandered far and wide on a quest...some would say an obsession to find the perch (Perca Flavescens) of my youth...the pre-spawn monster humpbacks we used to catch in Lake Sawyer as I was cutting class from the UW. I would like my boys to experience the extended belly bloat of just one more crispy, lightly seasoned perch fillet 20 minutes after you were sure you could eat no more.

    I have searched near and .... a little nearer with limited success. My boys (9 and 6) and I have crafted a boat from plywood and epoxy for just such a quest. One could not image a more perfect "Perch Jerkin'" craft (room for a lawn chair, cooler and a spot to rest the 12in. tv for watching the Mariners). Now...where to drag it...St Claire, Summit, American, Spanaway, Lawence, Offutt, McIntosh, Munn, Ward or the 100 or so impoundments or mud holes within a 30 minute drive from the old Olympia brewery.

    Have pity on me and show me the way... bawling:

    Thank you.
  11. BOBLAWLESS New Member

    Posts: 2,879
    Port Ludlow, WA, USA.
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    Dmoocher:

    I don't do perch. Far too snooty and snobby for that. Maybe if I could get them one right after the other on flies, I might have a change of heart.

    Back to religion. Has anyone ever read the "Dead Sea Scrolls"? Care to discuss them? There are some alternative explanations about who Christ was, where he came from, and that he was not the son of God but simply a Jewish mystic. Supposedly, the Scrolls offer a new look at an old myth.

    Bob, the Always curious about other people's thinking. :ray1:
  12. Big Tuna Member

    Posts: 1,963
    Wenatchee, Washington
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    Comrade Bob,
    You only seem to be interested in others' thinking when they agree with you. When people disagree, you start name-calling and insulting folks. You got issues.
  13. Bright Rivers Member

    Posts: 513
    Bellevue, WA, USA.
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    Lawless doesn't need anyone to defend him, and even if he did, I'm pretty sure he'd rather I wasn't the one to mount the defense, so I'll simply point out that every writer that ever had anything interesting or worthwhile to say had "issues."

    I believe there may be a deeper, darker, more sinister reason Bob has brought up the Dead Sea Scrolls in post #151. This is already the longest thread in the history of WFF.com (based on total replies), which is a real accomplishment for its originator. But the the real prize is total "views" -- how many sets of eyeballs have opened the thread? At 1,941 views, Bob is currently in 6th for most views and will soon move past miyawaki into 5th on the all-time list. I think his run will end there, but who knows -- this desperation Dead Sea Scrolls gimmick could give him a shot at the top spot.

    Relax Bob, this is not more villification and scorn. Just playing. :clown:
  14. BOBLAWLESS New Member

    Posts: 2,879
    Port Ludlow, WA, USA.
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    BR

    Thank you for not defending me--I could get in real trouble with all my liberal friends if you did. ;)

    But thanks for some of your kindness that you showed to me. I appreciate that.

    If this thread sets any record, it will not necessarily mean I have some dark sided plot (I just hate it when you play the pop psychlogist). What it does mean is there is much interest in the subject of religion and I am proud to live in country where it is allowed to be discussed.

    The "Dead Sea Scrolls" are not any "desperate atttempt" to keep the thread rolling. But no religious discussion would be complete with at least mentioning them and I was curious about what the board has to say about them since they have been such a thorn in the side of Christians.

    Does this long post make you nervous? Are you worried about something?
    Remember that Chris set this page up for just such discussions to separate them from the fishing page and he stated that they could be about most anything. Does the whole page bother you?

    Bob, the Anything is fair game as far as I am concerned and of course I do have issues. I long for a free, just and compassionate America. It is after
    after all my home. :ray1:
  15. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
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    Bob, have you actually read them yourself?? (translated I would presume...)
  16. jessejames Flyslinger

    Posts: 1,863
    Show Low, Arizona
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    I haven' t read much of the dead sea scroll text my Hebrew is a little rusty. ;)
    But from my college days I remember that the University of Arizona used their highly regarded research facility to cabon date fragments of the original scrolls. Their findings were that the animal skins and the linen they were wrapped in dated to a time from 5-80 years before the Birth of Christ.
    I have never heard that these scrolls were a thorn in the side of Christians.
    The evidence of Old Testament scriptures that were the oldest known fragments of scripture just demonstrated to Christians that the Old Testament of 2000 is the same Old Testament that was in use 80 years before Christ.
    It demonstrated that the Bible we use is more reliable historically than many would choose to believe.
    Got to go to Church so I will sign off.
    jesse clark
  17. BOBLAWLESS New Member

    Posts: 2,879
    Port Ludlow, WA, USA.
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    Chadk<

    Yes, and in translation, of course. They were written in Aramaic, the language of Christ.
    I read them in college and though that has been some time ago, I still remember the gist of it. How about you?

    Bob, the I found them facinating. :thumb:
  18. Cactus Dana Miller

    Posts: 667
    Tacoma, WA, USA.
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    Of course the Dead Sea Scrolls don't refer to Jesus as the Son of God; they were written by Jews! According to all Jewish teachings Jesus was a prophet, so I would find it an earth shaking revelation if the early Jews considered Jesus the Son of God. The Dead Sea Scrolls treatment of Jesus is perfectly consistant with both Jewish and Christian theology.

    According to research I have seen, they were written in Aramaic AND Hebrew. This research also stated that although most of the Scrolls were written prior to Christ's birth, a few were written after his birth.
  19. jessejames Flyslinger

    Posts: 1,863
    Show Low, Arizona
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    There are 800 different manuscripts in the Dead Sea Scrolls 90-95% of them are written in Hebrew, a smaller portion in Aramaic and some in Greek.
    Virtually all of the biblical texts are in Hebrew, some of the Essenne sect writings were in Aramaic. There are a variety of materials that were found in 1947 in the 4 caves near Qumron. Among them was an almost complete text from Isaiah, sections from Habakkuk and other prophets of the Old Testament. Sections of Psalm and proverbs as well has portions of the historical books Genesis. Exodus, Leviticus Numbers and Deuteronomy.
    There were rules and regulations from the essenes and other writings that are "seclular" in nature: lists observations and commentary on the scriptural writings.
    Research by Jewish scholars as well as others dates all of this material from a period 80 years before Christ. From my study I found no reference to Jesus or his earthly ministry. There are a lot of references to the Coming Messiah, the Essennes were looking for and awaiting the coming of Jesus. There are also many references to the second coming of the Lord Jesus at the end of the ages. But these old manuscripts were probably hidden away safe from the Roman occupation before Jesus was born.
    Blessings:
    jesse clark
  20. SpeyRodBeBop Member

    Posts: 176
    Mission, British Columbia.
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    Paul, the only biblical contemporary of Jesus, shows little if any knowledge of a historical Jesus. Instead, he pointed out that the story was not new, merely a repetition of much older myths. The story of Isis (note the closeness of the name to that of Jesus) predates the Christian myth by some fifteen hundred years. He too was born in a cave or stable and was visited by three travelers who were expecting his coming. The whole story only makes sense if it is looked upon as a myth.