The Earth Is Bleeding...

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by dryflylarry, May 14, 2010.

  1. dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

    Posts: 4,103
    Near the Fjord
    Ratings: +569 / 0
    and no one can seem to stop it! Do you all feel as helpless as I do? I found these pictures to be amazing, but I have been avoiding them because it's so depressing. Can you imagine if there was a spill in the Puget Sound? I hope there are plenty of safeguards around here. This all makes me wanna cry.... What is going to happen to all the fishing down there? I'm pissed.

    http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/05/disaster_unfolds_slowly_in_the.html

    bawling:
  2. Go Fish Language, its a virus

    Posts: 1,285
    Rheomode, Wa.
    Ratings: +94 / 0
    With big oil earning (stealing) billions of dollars in
    profits every year and then crapping in our front yard
    and there is nothing we can do about it.

    Dave
  3. Lugan Joe Streamer

    Posts: 2,400
    Beautiful View, WA
    Ratings: +774 / 2
    What's amazing to me is the lack of fall-back options to shut off the oil. I have absolutely no technical subject matter expertise in deep water drilling, but it's odd that there seemed to be just one safety feature (the blow-ff valve), and since that failed, BP is grasping at straws trying to invent a solution for plugging the leak on the fly. It's as though they never invested any time in back-up safety systems and procedures. Amazing.

    Does anyone still disagree that it's time to develop an alternative energy industry in the US? Besides stopping oil spills, CO2 pollution, and giving money to regimes who harm us (e.g., Saudi Arabia, Venezuala, Iran), this is the next big technology industry and it'll mean jobs and economic growth for us (just like industries like IT, internet, cars, railroads and others before). We're get-up-and-go kind of country full of inventive risk takers, so we should be able to do this.
  4. Upton O Blind hog fisherman

    Posts: 2,171
    out of state now
    Ratings: +221 / 0
    I lived in Louisiana for three years, married a resident. Believe me, Katrina and BP are not a surprise to south Louisiana. These events were topics of discussions that I listened to from 1971 through 1985 (divorced). The part that get's me is the finger pointing at the oil execs. How about the governor, state and national senators, mayors, council members? You don't think that they didn't know this was definitely going to happen sometime? Where was the oversight? I fished those marshes for sea trout, and red drum. I caught blue crabs and seined shrimp down there. The blowout surprised me the same as Katrina: it didn't. Believe me, I'd want to hang (figuratively) the politicians first then go after big oil. Of course, you have to get the politicians out of the big oil pockets to get at'em. Additionally, the canals and channels that were dug to help maneuver materials and personnel for construction and maintenance of those oil rigs resulted in the loss of thousands of acres of estuarine wetlands by increasing fresh water intrusion. Oh, it goes on and on. By the way, this is only a symptom of the true problem.

    Now what is in place locally to insure we won't suffer the same when (not if) one of those big tankers offshore or in the Sound hits a reef or runs aground or gets rammed?
  5. dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

    Posts: 4,103
    Near the Fjord
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    Karl. I think I would rather "hang Big Oil" first. After all, isn't it their "greed" before safety that got us here? Save $500,000 for not puting on that extra safety valve or whatever, that's what I first understood. I think the responsibility first lies with the oil companies. All you have to do is take a look at what they have done down in South America. They left messes there and tried to hide it from the natives. Politicians like Sarah? No thanks to "Drill Baby Drill" in my book. When we talk alternative energy we need to leave the oil out. It's time to get serious about getting away from oil. I'm hoping something changes, but I'm afraid people will just forget the whole thing after a while and we'll still be bitching about the gasoline prices being too high at the pump! .... Don't elect politicians that are supported by big oil is one way to help....maybe.
  6. dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

    Posts: 4,103
    Near the Fjord
    Ratings: +569 / 0
    I just got finished watching The Rachel Maddow Show tonight. I suggest everyone watch it regarding the "Mineral Management Office of the Department of the Interior and what has been going on there. Amazing....... she gives a great report. Permits? Who needs permits?!!! What permits? Oh, we have a permit.
  7. FE427TP The Great Sage

    Posts: 48
    Southwest WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    There were multiple backup systems required to be tested weekly which failed, including the govt. not following it's own regulations to have supplies in place to help contain the spill. Part of the reason we don't have the same regulations as other countries were because the standards were already stricter than other countries. BP is no more responsible for this incident from a company hired to make a well for them than you would be responsible for the equipment of a hired well driller verifying for water before you bought property, or the hand tools of your general contractor that break while doing a remodel. There is more to this story than the liberal media is stating. Don't forget either that until this spill almost half of all the oil coming up into the ocean was from natural seepage...

    As for oil company greed, how about the govt. greed? The Federal and State govt. makes more money from a gallon of gas that they don't produce than the oil company does, so what incentive do they have to reduce production? Exxon pays mor ein taxes to our government than the total GDP of Ecuador and Guatemala. Oil companies aren't near the top as far as percentages of profit, Apple rips people off a lot worse for profit than the "greedy" oil companies do. When you look at the actual numbers during 2007 "big oil" made around 9% profit which is below average for companies on the S&P stock exchange which averaged 13%. Microsoft, made around 30% profit during the same time, Ebay, Johnson & Johnson, Google, McDonalds, Coca-Cola, Pfizer made between 18-21% profit, Apple Disney, AT&T GE, and Nike all had higher profit margins than Chevron and Exxon Mobil, the top 6 having higher profit margins than both Chevron and Exxon combined! Then you also have to figure that the tax burden Exxon alone paid took around $1200 off of everyone else who paid taxes tax burden in 2008. Exxon paid twice as much in taxes as it made in profit! Again why does the govt. have ANY incentive to reduce their production and by extension the money it's making off of them?

    All that being said, I hope they can stop this leak soon, it is a terrible tragedy for the local economy and the wildlife in the area that will die from it. I hope they know enough about what they are doing dropping organisms to break down the oil that it doesn't have a major bacterial backlash later on as well. They needed to explore the Russian model of successfully using during a major spill a small nuclear weapon to glass over the well head earlier on. The Russians successfully stopped 5 major oil leaks like this one by using the blast to close the well. At this point the damage from a small warhead would have been less than the damage we will have from letting the leak go on this long. All around it was a bad situation.
  8. IveofIone Active Member

    Posts: 3,093
    .
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    Your first post on here and you have to play the "liberal media" card? WTF! Perhaps some more correction for factual accuracy is in order.

    And how about that cool moniker: FE427TP. Is that a model number for a Fox News spin generator? And forgive us if we have forgotten about natural seepage. Perhaps you could explain to us bumpkins the difference between natural seepage and a fucking gusher....

    Ive
  9. fredaevans Active Member

    Posts: 3,131
    White City, Oregon, USA.
    Ratings: +126 / 0
    I think we all need to quit sniffing glue here ( a oil based product if memory serves). Save for you living in a mud hut somewhere, the WORLD runs on oil (and coal) .. that's the way it works, and will for generations. Are there 'alternative' sources? Yes, but are they the least bit cost effective? No ... save for one. Nuk power plants. Will we build any? Who the hell knows, but France generates 80% of all their power supply this way and even exports 'Killer-watts' to the rest of Europe.

    Last time I checked Google, they're still there.

    Last solid statistics I've seen suggest that 'alternative energy' (save for Nuk power plants) will ONLY supply 1 to 3 percent of all this Nations power supply needs. Kind of rough numbers for your kids, kids to live with .. unless that cabin in the wood/living off the land sounds like a great idea for 300 million people. Eat today? 80% of everything you had for breakfast/lunch/dinner (forget the clothing on your back, etc.) came to the store in the back of a truck. Pack Mules next?

    I'm please to guess you have a huge Veggie Garden (so do I by the way), but how many cases of canned beans/peas/etc., did you lay in for December, January, February, March, April, May, June and with a bit of luck .. to harvest in July? Oh, Sorry .. you bought 100 pound bags of beans, et al ... but damn it ... those were delivered to the store in a truck. Sheesh, gotta ban those trucks, they run on refined oil.

    I could go on and on, but what would be the point, as I think most here 'take my point'? I'm sure you didn't ride a bike to work today. Even if you did, or took 'mass transit' .... oooo damn, never mind, I forgot they required 'power' to build or run on oil. Sorry, forgetful me.

    Here's something to ponder before your response: "Just because you object to what I say, doesn't mean I'm wrong."

    Another great one liner goes to the effect of: "Never argue with an idiot, after a bi,t the folks listening in won't know whose who."

    Fred Evans
  10. fredaevans Active Member

    Posts: 3,131
    White City, Oregon, USA.
    Ratings: +126 / 0
    Now, now calm down, who are we with several thousand posts between us to question the 'ideology' of a first (and only?) post? (Why is there no 'rollieeyes' gremlin when your doing a 'quick reply.'
  11. Calvin1 Member

    Posts: 613
    Seattle, WA
    Ratings: +9 / 0
    I think the guy with the crazy moniker is a troll, but what's the number of posts that you have got to do with anything. Do you have to be over 1K before you know what you're talking about? I used to be Calvin before I lost the password for that user name and had to become Calvin1, but I don't often engage in the banter.

    If people have something to say, it doesn't really matter how often they say it.
  12. dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

    Posts: 4,103
    Near the Fjord
    Ratings: +569 / 0
    fredaevans. You might want to think twice about nuke power plants. Ever heard of "Chernobyl" ? Did you know that about 1,000,000 people have died from that? You should also heed Lugan's words more carefully. You need to look ahead a bit my friend. Ah heck, what's a few nuke plant disasters anyway...no big deal.....
  13. Ed Call Mumbling Moderator

    Posts: 17,556
    Kitsap Peninsula
    Ratings: +1,514 / 9
    Awesome stuff here folks! This spill is was an accident waiting to happen, is now and will continue to be mismanaged. The outcome? Who knows, but it won't be good for the fish or any other creatures in that ecosystem. It won't be good for any business except those profiting from clean up efforts. It is all a horrible clusterfuck and our lack of regulation is in part to blame. Too many things are over regulated. Now we see one huge example of one that was not regulated nearly enough. I have a lot of family in Louisiana that have depeneded upon the fishing industry in the gulf. I know they are screwed and sooner or later everyone else will be screwed in some way or another by this. My fear is that we won't learn a damn thing from this at all.
  14. Greg Armstrong Active Member

    Posts: 1,057
    Pugetropolis
    Ratings: +359 / 0
    [QUOTE; LUGAN said;

    "Does anyone still disagree that it's time to develop an alternative energy industry in the US? Besides stopping oil spills, CO2 pollution, and giving money to regimes who harm us (e.g., Saudi Arabia, Venezuala, Iran), this is the next big technology industry and it'll mean jobs and economic growth for us (just like industries like IT, internet, cars, railroads and others before). We're get-up-and-go kind of country full of inventive risk takers, so we should be able to do this."[/QUOTE]

    I'm with you Lugan - I prefer to be cautiously optimistic about what lies ahead. A lot of smart people are currently working on what will one day become viable energy alternatives for all of us, if not our kids (some already exist). It wasn't 150 years ago that many scoffed at the idea of the motorcar - now we all use them. Those that were so pessimistic about the automobile so long ago would be amazed at how we use them to get around today! We'll never live in a perfect world but I believe technology will improve and help to reduce our negative impacts on our little planet (and its fish!).

    Now if we could just get a handle on that little problem with that human population issue, then maybe we could make some real headway...
  15. oldskool Guest

    Posts: 0
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Hey Larry,

    I just want to say that I love your posts, and have respect for you as a fisherman and as someone that is entitled to his opinion like everyone else here. What I have to say is in no way intended to piss you off or belittle you in any way........cause if not read in the right frame of mind, well, it could come off that way.

    My best friend is a mechanical engineer for a company in the Tri Cities. He has several patents in the US and worldwide in the arena of nuclear science . He just finished a two year job in Germany and in the process learned exactly how safe nuclear really is. These days the only failure at such a plant would have to be intentional. That's right, intentional. I, like many of you, thought "Oh this could happen, or that could go wrong". This or that could happen, but because of Chernobly, it simply cannot happen ever again. The safety systems in place are beyond double redundant. Failures have to be carried out, by people, on purpose.

    If Chernobyl is your base of argument, then I strongly suggest that you educate yourself on what happened there exactly. I'll put it in Readers Digest form: No laws, safety (second thought), $$$ at all costs, and caring about something going wrong? - they knew it would eventually just as long as they were able to "get their fill" and get out. Qualified personal were hard to come by - most who were left - saw the writing on the wall.

    Most of Europe and all of Germany and France have run on nuclear power for many years without an incident. Why? They have to. They don't have the rivers like we do over here.

    Just because some second rate outfit like Chernobyl scares the would, all of a sudden nuke plants = bad.

    Think of it this way. You and 30 other guys jump into 30 different drift boats and head down your favorite stream. You are all having a good time, catching fish but all of a sudden you notice that one guy is having a tough time navigating the faster water. What would you do? I'd hope you would get with him and give him some tips. Ya, you are going to miss out on some fish, but you might save a life.

    In the corporate world it's just the opposite. Anyone in the business world knows it's dog eat dog. (Think of where Chernobyl was located ...think they are going to ask for any help before it's too late?) That and all of the code violation, unqualified people manning such a beast leads to disaster. They are worried about #1.

    Now back to the drift boat ordeal. Say you jump out of your boat to save this guy, but with all the wrong choices that he has made heading into that class 3 rapid he flips his boat and dies. Now based on your example (and a little more knowledge of what really happened at Chernobyl) your logic would be to get rid of all drift boats, and possibly close the river to all activity.

    I know that sounds silly because it was intended to. However, it is the same logic we grasp and hold on to when something like this oil rig fails. Again, I believe that certain permits, protocalls were not in place. In my opinion, one failure no matter how big should not constitute a global shutdown forever. What do you think is next? Maybe another source of energy comes our way......Want to place a wager on how long it takes before "they" have a meltdown.

    Nuclear power these days is safer than standig out in the sun for more than an hour. I welcome you to challenge me on this, I really do. I think, and have always thought if done correctly - Nuke pwer is the cleanest, safest, and less destructive to our planet.

    Ya, but what about the waste? Look it up. See what they are doing with it now.
  16. FE427TP The Great Sage

    Posts: 48
    Southwest WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    No sirs, not a troll, I've lurked off and on for the last year or so since I decided to take up fly fishing reading threads that I was interested in and never saw a thread that I had anything to contribute to. On this one I had a perspective from my employment that is apparently not present here. I guess this will be my baptism by fire ptyd so I'll throw in I fish for Rainbows on a small stream near Bonneville Dam in Southwestern WA, I used a Redington RS4 4 piece 5 weight rod an Okuma reel and I've found that they can't get enough of/the only fly I need is a Royal Coachman. I'm opinionated, but I try to back my opinion by fact and if anyone proves me wrong with backed fact I back down. I like the saying that "a wise man when proven to be wrong will cease to be one or the other"

    IveofIone, If you feel my opinion is wrong, instead of deriding and resorting to insults, prove me wrong. FE427TP is a moniker I've used online for about 14 years now, it relates to Ford engines of the "FE" family, ford used them very successfully in racing in the 60's with the 427 cubic inch tunnel port (T.P.) being one of the most successful ones. It was a hobby of mine when I was younger I always wanted one but never had the money for it. Now when you decide to not swallow the liberal Koolaid your venom dripping post evokes of everyone but you needs to be more open minded and instead start reading from news sources globally you will see that American mainstream media has a strong bias and presents information in a heavily biased way to influence public opinion. Fox, NBC, CBS, ABC, and CNN are all guilty of their biases for their side. It is hard to find unbiased information. But when you see the same news stories presented from outside and inside the US, opinions the US media presents consistently have a strong liberal bias. You research information you're presented with as every responsible person does to verify it I'm sure and my opinion is based off of what I have seen. If you choose not to agree with me that's your right and I'll agree to disagree.:thumb: We can all just get along :cool:

    DryFlyLarry please cite your reference for 1,000,000 deaths the World Health Organization says 56 died directly and estimates another 4,000 will die from the exposure of the 600,000 exposed to high levels of radiation, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster 4th paragraph. Again please cite your reference showing 1,000,000 died from Chernobyl. We do have a common agreement that many people were affected by it and have lower quality of life though and nuclear has a LOT of risk for it's benefits. It is worth noting that France gets around 80% of it's power from nuclear reactors with it's worst incident I've found involving no watering crops or drinking from a river for 2 weeks. The United Soviet Socialist Republic was on it's deathbed as reactor number 4 was being built which probably had an effect on why it happened and was so bad. All in all nuclear power does have a better track record of health and safety for total use compared to other major power sources.

    Unless we take a major step back in the progress of man we will have to accept the problems that arise with our need for energy and try to fix our errors as they arise. But it's worth noting the line we use, the hooks we use, the materials needed to make our float tubes and hip waders all got in the door of our homes one way or another in a cost effective way that allows us to enjoy this sport thanks to our use of oil. I would like to see much more use of heat storage technologies, using black panels on a roof to heat water in a concrete cylinder buried in the yard could be used to both cool the house during the day and keep it warm at night for example to cut down on our need for electricity for heating and cooling. Solar has a lot of problems still and the pollution and chemicals from manufacture of the panels, inverters and lead acid batteries to utilize it by most people who are also running AC electricity from the grid to me doesn't justify it's use yet.

    I'm not trying to step on the toes of anyone, occasionally a dissenting opinion is a good thing :)
  17. KerryS Ignored Member

    Posts: 6,768
    Sedro Woolley, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +1,785 / 0


    Don't know anything about spills or cleaning them up, but I like the simplicity of these guys' approach. Perhaps not a total solution but something that seems possible as part of the cleanup.
  18. fredaevans Active Member

    Posts: 3,131
    White City, Oregon, USA.
    Ratings: +126 / 0
    Ah Chernobyl. Built by a country that thinks 'safety' is a secondary issue. Using a 'one off' from Russia is not the one I'd choose to make a point. Have there been other 'this might get interesting'' happen? Yup, three mile Island comes immediately to mind as does the Russian Submarine (K-19?). But lets look at one fact: the design of these things today (a very good guess) is far different from what it was 20-30 years ago. Did you know there are already 100'ish nuke plants (big and small) in the US right now? World wide (per Google) somewhere just under 500 active plants, and more under construction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nuclear_Power_History.png

    But I think it quite 'unfair' to try to compare the knowledge/design of these thing from 20-30 years ago vs today's technology.

    Just my .02 cents as using a Colman Lantern for my primary light source after sun down doesn't have a lot of appeal (well, let's leave camping out of this). And they run on white gas/what-ever.

    fae
  19. dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

    Posts: 4,103
    Near the Fjord
    Ratings: +569 / 0
    Oldskool. So I do plan on reading up a bit on nuke power plants in a new book with the review as follows, so I will reserve my judgement. (This is suppose to be a good book on Chernobyl and not about current nuke plants however.) Thanks for getting me more interested as I should be:

    http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/apr2010/2010-04-26-01.html

    I'm headed out fishing, but flipped the news on for a short morning update. CNN reported that BP profits were something like $61 billion (now I don't remember if it was the 1st quarter or the year). So far, they have spent $450,000,000 on cleanup with more to come of course. But they reported that that only equals 1 weeks of BP profits. So now I'm going to scout out some trout before the next environmental disaster happens!
  20. Upton O Blind hog fisherman

    Posts: 2,171
    out of state now
    Ratings: +221 / 0
    Dryflylarry,
    When you were a kid, did you ever throw rocks at hornets nests then run like hell? And you made sure there was at least one kid with you who was a lot slower runner than you?

    Folks, oil is here to stay for quite a while. Question still remains: what to do to prevent it here? Who pays?

    Karl