Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by fredaevans, Nov 8, 2009.
We should see if Scoones wants to change the site to Washinton Pinners
I came to flyfishing after watching a guy on a river put his pin down and take up his fly rod...Looked like he was having allot more fun...Still I fished my pin for salmon etc. slowly I realized every time I was out with the pin...I was getting bored...started to bring my fly rod..and then my spey rod...
Slowly the pin(s) have sat at home...
I have found so much more excitement and challenge in using the fly that it engrosses me all my time on the water....I don't pretend to be an elitist...I just enjoy what I do and while the numbers might not be what they were with gear...but then the fewer the fish, the gratification is ten fold....
.I have two pins for sale and three pin rods...custome spey beulah, gloomis, lamiglass...
Pins...well you take a look...
They aren't cheap, the fancy one is from ontario and goes for 800 new...The other is a milner..made in b.c. and has a strong following..
(Fred you will find if you affix a good chunk of lead the roll kind that you can slide your line through...it will help your casting practice...most floats for out here are around 90 or more grains...take it back, let the line go and swing it out....)
It's not about the arrogance of inferior or superior method. There is a lot of confusion about that. With regard to trout fishinng, fly fishing is frequently the most effective method. The topic of centerpinning seems to be about steelhead fishing and the fact that it's more effective at putting up "numbers." That's why I posted tongue-in-cheek (t.i.c.) that using a drift gillnet takes a lot of skill and puts up the "numbers" like nothing else.
Fly fishing for steelhead is about almost anything except "numbers." Fly fishing for steelhead is less effective than bait fishing with drift gear, or float fishing with centerpins and bait or lure, or nymphing with an indicator/float/bobber. It is the self-imposed constraint of choosing a less effective method that makes fly fishing the "swing" a higher art form, not a superior, just a higher form than any kind of drift fishing, bait fishing, or centerpinning.
Let's use hunting as an analogy. A hunter can choose from numerous methods: a highpower modern rifle with variable high power scope, a 30-30 with open sights, a smooth-bore muzzle loader, a compound archery bow with sophisticated sights, a recurve bow with basic sighting system, a yew-wood longbow with no sights. None is intrinsically superior nor inferior to the other. But would you really try to convince me that the longbow shooter isn't practicing a higher hunting art form than the scoped modern rifle shooter?
It's the same with fishing gear. I know I would be more effective with another gear choice, but I choose fly fishing for steelhead because it is the method that yields me the greatest personal satisfaction while still offering a reasonable chance of success. If I were into the least common denominator of "whatever works," I'd absolutely choose a drift gillnet over all else if it were legal.
There you have it, my case for higher art form, not which is better or worse, superior or inferior. If you perceive a degree of arrogance among the fly fishermen who select methods requiring the greatest self-imposed constraint or limitation, consider it similar to the longbowman who brought down a trophy elk at 20 yards feeling a tad loftier than the guy who chose to do the same with a scoped high powered rifle from 400 yards away. He has the right to do so by accepting the tougher challenge and acquiring and applying the skill to be successful.
While there is nothing unethical about nymphing for steelhead with a fly rod or float fishing for them with a centerpin rod, they are both a lower art form by definition for the very reason that they are more effective than swinging a fly, on average.
Well put Salmo!!
I normally aggree with you 95% of the time and this time I agree with most of what you have wrote, but to say the word higher form.... strikes me wrong. I love fly fishing it is the one thing in my life that I could not live with out. (Don't let my wife Know) I do agree fly fishing in a traditional form, both spey and single hand take more practice and skill to learn how to cast. But to say that once you are skilled at the art, it is higher than a gear guy or guy using a float/indicator. Traditional----You walk to a run, start at the top, cast, swing, take a step, cast, swing, take a step and so on. Guys with floats/indicators walks up to a section of river and thinks to himself were could a fish be holding and then grid the water and breaks down a river, changing his leader depth and weight. Seems like more skill then a guy swinging for a home run. A guide working out of a boat backtrolling hand painted plugs with a secret scent, watching his fish finder... working his speed, watching for contures, water tempature. Really who's higher form. All I am saying is that they all take skill and the best of the best in each style are amazing to watch as a flyfisherman or not. If you were to look in my closet you would see 50+ rods and 85 percent are single and double handers, but I will be the first to say that there are time I need to fish with gear rods and pin setups...way because I love to catch fish and I can't wait as long as some guys for my next tug. If the swing is on I am going to swing if I see guys nailing fish with a nymph set up guess what, I am nymphing. If I want to battle a 50+ pound king from the kenai, I am back bouncing eggs. I am not attacking anyone so sorry if I offended anyone.
Center pinning is pretty much an art form just across the border. And in recent years it's be come increasingly popular up here. So far, most of the guys doing the pinning have been pretty darn cordial and respectful to me, but I guess your mileage may vary.
I admit, I didn't read this entire thread and missed the part about your gillnet example. I re-read my post and there were a couple things that read different than what I meant to say. I completely agree with your post with one exception, which I'll get to later. I still maintain that many fly fishers look down upon gear fishers. I come across them all the time in fly shops, on the river, fly fishing clubs, and even the internet. Whether they think that because they chose to use a more sporting method or not is up for debate.
However, my point is there is a newer generation of fly anglers that place more emphasis on catching numbers of steelhead rather than the flyfishing experience itself. Many if not most of these anglers use traditional trout nymphing techniques and apply them to steelhead (e.g., indicators, split shot, jigs, eggs etc.). Regarding that technique, I say it is no better, or more sporting, or no more refined than gear fishing. In fact, it may be even a little worse because it is a bastardized way of fly fishing in its purist form.
However, it is not the technique or practice that I frown upon as I do it myself regularly. It is the attitude of the angler who turns up his/her nose at the gear angler because they are not "fly fishing" that I don't appreciate. It is the attitude that "I'm better than that guy with the centerpin because I chuck my indicator, split shot, two nymph rig with a fly rod, reel and floating line while the gear angler is throwing an indicator, split shot, jig, with a center pin rod and reel" that bothers me.
I completely understand your analogy of the different hunting techniques and completely agree that a swung fly, either on a floating line or on a sinktip is a more "artsy", classical, and pure way of fly fishing than any other technique.
Finally I disagree on your gillnet method. I think a seine is an even better way of catching fish, as it allows the bycatch to be released alive. Just ask the Colville Tribe. :thumb:
I’m not interested in arguing the aesthetics of the various forms of angling in this context. If anyone is interested in arguing what art is of ‘a higher form’, they should read Plato’s Symposium and make appropriate posts on my thread at www.washingtonphilosphy.com
None of the posts poking fun at centerpin fishing were terribly offensive and I don’t think they were meant to be. However, I did find it hypocritical that members posted responses to this thread, while claiming to want to avoid this subject entirely. 95% off the threads on this forum are either uninteresting or I find that I have nothing relevant to add. Rather than posting on these, I merely skim past them. Some of these threads deal with aspects of fly fishing or politics that I have no interest in. I don’t take the time to post about how I have no interest in the subject. Why would they care?
As others have pointed out this forum routinely deals with subjects that are much farther from the subject of fly fishing than this one. If we are to be as fundamentalist in our thinking as some of you seem to desire, we should say goodbye to our friends from out of state (sorry washingtonflyfishing.com) Eliminate any posts dealing with conservation (strictly speaking not specific to fly fishing) etc…
I am of course not serious, which is why I have a hard time thinking that you guys are.
Centerpin fishing is not fly fishing. It is a technique that appeals to some of the best fly fishermen I know. (Conversely I know some great fly fishermen that have no interest). This thread began as a genuine request for information on a subject that many fly fishermen in Washington are interested in. Poke fun if you must.
I have no input on the topic of center pin, just wanted to state that one thing that I really enjoy about this forum is the number of extremely intelligent posters. This thread alone has had some very well written posts, and they are a pleasure to read regardless of my personal belief on this topic.
I think I understand. My premise is subjective, not objective. You won't find me saying that drift fishing or back bouncing is unskilled. I know better. My premise is that the higher angling art form results from the self imposed constraints that are inherently less effective. Nobody in the world has to agree with that, yet I'd like to have a really long talk with the odd person who feels shooting the scoped high power rifle is equivalent to longbow as a hunting art form. Same with the swung fly on a floating line contrasted with drifting bait on a casting rod. I do know and appreciate the differences, and that's how I formed my biases. BTW, I drag herring for salmon. It's not like I'm a purist or anything.
There's no accounting for the mental imprecision that places jig and bobber fishing with a fly rod on some higher level than jig and bobber fishing with a spinning or centerpin rod. "But at least I'm fly fishing!" Uh, yeah, well, whatver. No argument from me that it's pretty sketchy "ism" that values fishing, so long as it's performed with a fly rod, so highly. And go ahead and disagree with my gillnet suggestion. I counter that gillnetting ain't about "saving" or releasing any fish alive. It's about the numbers, man! Just the numbers. Let the greenies worry about saving the fish. Ah, but I digress.
I didn't poke fun because I must; I did it because humor seemed like a good way to break the tension in a "what is really fly fishing" type thread. And aesthetics, like art, is in the eye of the beholder. And there is no accounting for taste, especially bad taste, of which there is no short supply.
I have no quarrel with centerpinning. It looks interesting. I could add that I'm the semi-proud owner of a couple old Winonas, among the first centerpins in the US I think. I've never tried to cast them; I just found and picked them up this summer.
It's indeed subjective about what is appropriate forum content, but it probably wouldn't surprise you to know that I didn't join this site to read about centerpinning. And I doubt many others did either. Nonetheless, funny or not, I think the thread has elicited some interesting and useful discussion.
Dang it! Missed Golfman's tag line; makes a heck of a lot of sense to me. Actually we've at the low ebb of river fishing here on the upper Rogue so any 'trip' would (for all practical purposes) be for casting practice. Somehow I'm just not up for dropping $20 for gas at this point. But soon! Very, very soon!
Centerpin rod/reel (fly) fishing?
Someone made a comment about becoming a better fly fisher if we learned to pass on the "conservation water" and concentrate more on the good fly water. iagree Yes! I like that. :thumb: Give Fred his CP rig and let him go. Keeps him off the good fly water. More better for me. Another one I liked "Just because it offends you, doesn't make it right" Ooooh, that's goood. I'll have to remember that if I ever get the opportunity to talk to Barney (I am not a crook) Frank. :rofl:
Awesome, now I don't feel compelled to write anything :thumb:
Centerpin rod/reel (fly) fishing?
Jimmie! Jimmie! Jimmie!!! Whip me/beat me .. but I still can't cast that darned thing (haven't had the opportunity to try the great suggestion above). Actually, only a few places I want to try this 'set-up,' most on the Rogue below Grants Pass. Some water is 'impossible' to fish with a fly rod ... but a center pin? Perhaps? Bummer is, per the last Oregon ODF report of fish over 'Gold Ray Damn's' fish counter for December is a total (GRAND TOTAL, I might add) of three .. count them .. THREE fish. Going to be quite awhile before we 'cast for success.' Bummer, DOUBLE bummer, but the upper Rogue is a Feb-April fishery unless you want to go waaaaay down stream below Grants Pass.
Will be a bit before I try that as the cost of the Petrol would feed me/Doggies for a full week. FRACK!!