On religion and such

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by BOBLAWLESS, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. Jason Baker

    Jason Baker Member

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    Guys: No one is going to change their views reading a website. I have basically chosen to not get involved in these discussions anymore (but can't help myself sometime). The Eastside lakes are open, the Yakima is fishing well, OP Stellhead are on fire; Let's get back to the Fishing Forum. 100+ posts just screams ENOUGH!
     
  2. dmoocher

    dmoocher Member

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    I agree...we can continue this over some irish coffee around a campfire at Reds!
     
  3. Chris Stokesbary

    Chris Stokesbary Member

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    Ahhh...good ole discussions on religion.

    Like many others I don't think this conversation can ever go anywhere, but it can lead to an understanding between the two sides of the coin....and hopefully lead to full understanding that there aren't two sides, because it isn't a black and white issue.

    I was raised going to Church...being a fiesty analytical type that was big into history and philosophy, I made up my own mind fairly young that it wasn't for me. Not religion or faith per se, but the idea of organized religion. Everyone shares some level of faith about how things came to be, and whether or not there is a higher power.

    One of my favorite "South Park" moments is a scene at the gates of Heaven.
    "The correct answer was...Mormon." Classic.

    “Believe nothing.
    No matter where you read it,
    Or who said it,
    Even if I have said it,
    Unless it agrees with your own reason
    And your own common sense.”

    Ahhh...the Buddah. Fishing is my meditation.


    I agree very much with Campblade that the Christians around me don't bring it up, and don't try to convert me....

    There are the minority however that do. They come to my door. They impede my progress at the airport. They open "schools" in impovershed lands. They tell me what is right and wrong. They are on T.V. preaching hell fire, asking for money, and lifting logs. (Ever seen that?)

    "The God I believe in isn't short of cash mister."
    I starting listening to U2 about the same time I started reading the buddah.

    My beliefs are simple. I believe I know the difference between right and wrong, and I can live my life making good decisions every day. I believe that at the end of my days I can look back and say I was a good person, that I helped others and treated them with respect.

    I'd like to believe in a higher power, but the bible reads to me as a good story. When was it written? What % is fiction? What happened during the dark ages? I'll get answers, but no proof. There is no solid proof to the side of evolution either, but the science is more compelling to me than the faith of others.

    Where I do absolutely draw the line and get fired up is at the conservative right attempting to dictate how I live my life through influence in the government or unrequested sermons. I believe that if organized religion could rule themselves and let those of other religions (or lack thereof) live how they see fit, we could truly acheive tolerance. I won't hold my breath.

    To organized religion: Rule your own house. I didn't invite you into mine, and I don't tell you how to live your life.

    To 99% of those within organized religion: Welcome, make yourself at home.
     
  4. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    "Chad...What free will is there in a Tsunami, cholera, malaria...people have free will to choose Diptheria?... or is the old testament God reaking some old time vengance?"

    The second question is easier. We are no longer living in the 'old testement era', so the answer is 'no'...

    How do you pupose God handle issues like disease, car accidents, fires, earth quakes, without violating the freedom of choice (free will)? While we do not choose to be victims, we know that bad things happen. Should God wrap a protective bubble around each person?

    The Bible tells us that God is our heavenly Father. A father loves his children and does not want them to suffer. But he can't make all their decisions and he has to let them experience life on their own at some point. People learn from experiences - bad and good. How can there be compassion without suffering? Hate without love? Success without failure?

    I often think of Paul writing from prison. Some of the most inspiring and hope filled writings I have ever read come from Paul who was beaten, chased out of towns, nearly stoned to death, and thrown in prison just for telling people that Jesus rose from the dead and offers salvation.

    Even in the toughest times we can have hope and a promise that God is with us - and when it is over, we will be with Him where there will be no pain and suffering. Christ himself was beaten, spit on, humiliated, and crucified. When I go through hard times I know God can relate and will see me through it.

    By the way, how does karma explain pain and suffering of children? What comes around goes around??

    By the way, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm just answering questions that have been asked and responding to statements made. I don't think any less of anyone who thinks differently than me...
     
  5. dmoocher

    dmoocher Member

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    Anyone can field this one....
    Why did God change between the old and new testaments and you have to admit...he changed a "heck" of a lot. He seemed to mellow after his son was killed...or is it people just interpreted his word differently...meaning all the religious leaders in the old testament killed people for no reason, and killing people is against the 10 Commandments meaning the ancient tribes of Israel are now burning in hell? So why can't we just toss the old testament?

    I am very curious how this can be reconciled in good conscience.?
     
  6. jessejames

    jessejames Flyslinger

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    I am sorry Dave I can not even read anymore of your stuff. I just can't stand reading it and looking at that Catfish bobber. There is no way that a person with that as an avatar has any credibility at all. :hmmm:
    jesse clark
     
  7. estill

    estill Member

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    Not necessarily - The old testament has detailed instructions for different sacrifices. Depending on the ritual, animal, time of year, etc, you could earn "forgiveness" (I'm not sure of the exact word) for violating laws, and the 10 Commandments.

    No, the old testament describes why things are the way they are in the new testament. In other words, it was prophesized who the Christ would be long before Jesus was born. Without that description, we cannot be sure Jesus was who he said he was.

    Reconciliation is a poor choice of words, in my opinion. The new testament and Jesus is the fulfillment of the promises God made to the Jews throughout the old testament. The way I read things; God gave the Jews a set of rules that were difficult to follow. The Jew took those rules, misinterpretted, and added to them. As God watched them struggle with these laws, He came up with a plan to get them out from under themselves. Ultimately Jesus was the fulfillment of this plan. Maybe letting the Jews struggle for all of those years was a form of tough love. I don't know what God is/was thinking.

    Jesus didn't change much concerning God's law. In fact he was able to summarize it up quite nicely. This is from Matthew chapter 22 versus 36-40.

    What Jesus changed was our ability to achive forgiveness. According to Jesus, all we have to do is ask for it. He even took it beyond the Jews and opened it up to the entire world.
     
  8. Randy Knapp

    Randy Knapp Active Member

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    First, I would like to say that "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis would be a great read for most of you as it is written by one of the brightest minds of the 20th Century and argues for a Christian world view without reference to the Bible.

    Second, I always enjoyed this little piece by John Wesley:

    The Bible must be the invention either of good men or angels, bad men or devils, or of God.

    1. It could not be the invention of good men or angels, for they neither would nor could make a book and tell lies all the time they were writing it, saying, "thus saith the Lord" when it was their own invention.

    2. It could not be the invention of bad men or devils, for they could not make a book which commands all duty, forbids all sins, and condemns their own souls to Hell for all eternity.

    3. Therefore, draw the conclusion that the Bible must be given by Divine inspiration.

    I am a believer, a Christian, and I appreciate the comments on both sides in this forum. I also appreciate Chris for allowing the space to share our thoughts. I, too, consider myself to be an educated person with some common sense thrown in, and would be willing to answer questions through personal contact if this forum is a bit too scattered.

    Randy
     
  9. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    "Why did God change between the old and new testaments and you have to admit...he changed a "heck" of a lot."

    God didn't change -the 'covenant' changed (the agreement\relationship changed).

    Jesus said "I come not to abolish the law, but to fullfil it".

    As 'the law' was fullfilled in Jesus, it opened the door for all mankind to enter in a relationship with God. It was no longer about trying to be a 'good person' or trying to do the 'right things' - being a religious person basically. It was now about having faith in God through Jesus Christ.

    The old testement is a pointer to the much needed and anticipated messiah. The new testement is: the Gospel \ Good news = announcing the messiah and the covenant through Jesus. After the first 4 books telling who Jesus is (the fortold messiah), the next book, Acts tells us about the days and weeks after his death\resurection. The final books are there to give guidance to the church going forward.
     
  10. Jason Baker

    Jason Baker Member

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    Hey, listen to this guy!
     
  11. sean

    sean Member

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    Thou shalt not lie :rofl:
     
  12. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    I just spent 3 days and 2 nights fishing on the east side. I'm just trying to get all that good fishing and quality time with my son off my mind :rofl:
     
  13. dmoocher

    dmoocher Member

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    It's a perch bobber not a catfish bobber...it's obvious we'll never agree on anything! :beer2:
     
  14. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    Wht pisses me off, Dave, is that you keep getting this bite, or should I say "nibble", and yet you fail to do anything about it. If you don't strike soon, all your worm is going to chewed off by that perch. I say let him have it and hope for the best. Are you talking yellow perch?

    Bob, the I've caught a few perch but thankfully not many. :rolleyes:
     
  15. dmoocher

    dmoocher Member

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    I hate to switch gears in a theology forum and start talking fishing...
    I have wandered far and wide on a quest...some would say an obsession to find the perch (Perca Flavescens) of my youth...the pre-spawn monster humpbacks we used to catch in Lake Sawyer as I was cutting class from the UW. I would like my boys to experience the extended belly bloat of just one more crispy, lightly seasoned perch fillet 20 minutes after you were sure you could eat no more.

    I have searched near and .... a little nearer with limited success. My boys (9 and 6) and I have crafted a boat from plywood and epoxy for just such a quest. One could not image a more perfect "Perch Jerkin'" craft (room for a lawn chair, cooler and a spot to rest the 12in. tv for watching the Mariners). Now...where to drag it...St Claire, Summit, American, Spanaway, Lawence, Offutt, McIntosh, Munn, Ward or the 100 or so impoundments or mud holes within a 30 minute drive from the old Olympia brewery.

    Have pity on me and show me the way... bawling:

    Thank you.