On religion and such

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by BOBLAWLESS, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    Dmoocher:

    I don't do perch. Far too snooty and snobby for that. Maybe if I could get them one right after the other on flies, I might have a change of heart.

    Back to religion. Has anyone ever read the "Dead Sea Scrolls"? Care to discuss them? There are some alternative explanations about who Christ was, where he came from, and that he was not the son of God but simply a Jewish mystic. Supposedly, the Scrolls offer a new look at an old myth.

    Bob, the Always curious about other people's thinking. :ray1:
     
  2. Big Tuna

    Big Tuna Member

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    Comrade Bob,
    You only seem to be interested in others' thinking when they agree with you. When people disagree, you start name-calling and insulting folks. You got issues.
     
  3. Bright Rivers

    Bright Rivers Member

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    Lawless doesn't need anyone to defend him, and even if he did, I'm pretty sure he'd rather I wasn't the one to mount the defense, so I'll simply point out that every writer that ever had anything interesting or worthwhile to say had "issues."

    I believe there may be a deeper, darker, more sinister reason Bob has brought up the Dead Sea Scrolls in post #151. This is already the longest thread in the history of WFF.com (based on total replies), which is a real accomplishment for its originator. But the the real prize is total "views" -- how many sets of eyeballs have opened the thread? At 1,941 views, Bob is currently in 6th for most views and will soon move past miyawaki into 5th on the all-time list. I think his run will end there, but who knows -- this desperation Dead Sea Scrolls gimmick could give him a shot at the top spot.

    Relax Bob, this is not more villification and scorn. Just playing. :clown:
     
  4. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    BR

    Thank you for not defending me--I could get in real trouble with all my liberal friends if you did. ;)

    But thanks for some of your kindness that you showed to me. I appreciate that.

    If this thread sets any record, it will not necessarily mean I have some dark sided plot (I just hate it when you play the pop psychlogist). What it does mean is there is much interest in the subject of religion and I am proud to live in country where it is allowed to be discussed.

    The "Dead Sea Scrolls" are not any "desperate atttempt" to keep the thread rolling. But no religious discussion would be complete with at least mentioning them and I was curious about what the board has to say about them since they have been such a thorn in the side of Christians.

    Does this long post make you nervous? Are you worried about something?
    Remember that Chris set this page up for just such discussions to separate them from the fishing page and he stated that they could be about most anything. Does the whole page bother you?

    Bob, the Anything is fair game as far as I am concerned and of course I do have issues. I long for a free, just and compassionate America. It is after
    after all my home. :ray1:
     
  5. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    Bob, have you actually read them yourself?? (translated I would presume...)
     
  6. jessejames

    jessejames Flyslinger

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    I haven' t read much of the dead sea scroll text my Hebrew is a little rusty. ;)
    But from my college days I remember that the University of Arizona used their highly regarded research facility to cabon date fragments of the original scrolls. Their findings were that the animal skins and the linen they were wrapped in dated to a time from 5-80 years before the Birth of Christ.
    I have never heard that these scrolls were a thorn in the side of Christians.
    The evidence of Old Testament scriptures that were the oldest known fragments of scripture just demonstrated to Christians that the Old Testament of 2000 is the same Old Testament that was in use 80 years before Christ.
    It demonstrated that the Bible we use is more reliable historically than many would choose to believe.
    Got to go to Church so I will sign off.
    jesse clark
     
  7. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    Chadk<

    Yes, and in translation, of course. They were written in Aramaic, the language of Christ.
    I read them in college and though that has been some time ago, I still remember the gist of it. How about you?

    Bob, the I found them facinating. :thumb:
     
  8. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    Of course the Dead Sea Scrolls don't refer to Jesus as the Son of God; they were written by Jews! According to all Jewish teachings Jesus was a prophet, so I would find it an earth shaking revelation if the early Jews considered Jesus the Son of God. The Dead Sea Scrolls treatment of Jesus is perfectly consistant with both Jewish and Christian theology.

    According to research I have seen, they were written in Aramaic AND Hebrew. This research also stated that although most of the Scrolls were written prior to Christ's birth, a few were written after his birth.
     
  9. jessejames

    jessejames Flyslinger

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    There are 800 different manuscripts in the Dead Sea Scrolls 90-95% of them are written in Hebrew, a smaller portion in Aramaic and some in Greek.
    Virtually all of the biblical texts are in Hebrew, some of the Essenne sect writings were in Aramaic. There are a variety of materials that were found in 1947 in the 4 caves near Qumron. Among them was an almost complete text from Isaiah, sections from Habakkuk and other prophets of the Old Testament. Sections of Psalm and proverbs as well has portions of the historical books Genesis. Exodus, Leviticus Numbers and Deuteronomy.
    There were rules and regulations from the essenes and other writings that are "seclular" in nature: lists observations and commentary on the scriptural writings.
    Research by Jewish scholars as well as others dates all of this material from a period 80 years before Christ. From my study I found no reference to Jesus or his earthly ministry. There are a lot of references to the Coming Messiah, the Essennes were looking for and awaiting the coming of Jesus. There are also many references to the second coming of the Lord Jesus at the end of the ages. But these old manuscripts were probably hidden away safe from the Roman occupation before Jesus was born.
    Blessings:
    jesse clark
     
  10. SpeyRodBeBop

    SpeyRodBeBop Member

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    Paul, the only biblical contemporary of Jesus, shows little if any knowledge of a historical Jesus. Instead, he pointed out that the story was not new, merely a repetition of much older myths. The story of Isis (note the closeness of the name to that of Jesus) predates the Christian myth by some fifteen hundred years. He too was born in a cave or stable and was visited by three travelers who were expecting his coming. The whole story only makes sense if it is looked upon as a myth.
     
  11. jessejames

    jessejames Flyslinger

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    Are you talking about Paul the apostle who lived during the lifetime of Christ? The only Biblical contemporary?? How about James, John and Peter all apostles and authors of New testament books they virtually lived with Jesus for 3 years. What about Mark author of the second book of the New Testament he was one of the young men who followed Jesus.
    Even the secular Jewish historian Josephus mentions the historical Jesus.
    Blessings
    jesse clark
     
  12. SpeyRodBeBop

    SpeyRodBeBop Member

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    I'm talking about the writers of the New Testament. Most were written towards the end of the first century.
     
  13. jessejames

    jessejames Flyslinger

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    All of the books of the New Testament were written after Jesus died but before the end of the First century. All of the writers were contemporaries of Jesus. Of the Gospel writers only Luke (who wrote the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts), appeared to write his book about Jesus from interviews instead of personal accounts of being with him. All of the other writers spent considerable time with Jesus.
    Paul who wrote much of the New Testament was in a leadership position in the Jewish Sanhedrin (the ruling body of the Jewish temple). He probably knew of Jesus and heard him preach. In his own writings he talks about "meeting" Jesus on the road to Damascus when he was converted. He also says that he recieved teaching from Jesus in the desert for three years after his conversion.
    The New testament is the writings of people who knew Jesus and were intimately involved with his life. These accounts (matthew mark luke and john) are real historical accounts of Jesus.
    Blessings
    jesse clark
     
  14. Randy Knapp

    Randy Knapp Active Member

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    The truly interesting info I have on the dead sea scrolls and other historical writings is that they have substantiated not detracted from the historicity of the Bible. There has been achaelogical authenticity for every old testament book in entirety but Esther. There is more manuscript authority from ancient sources for the Bible than any other historical document. The fact of the matter is that any serious study of ancient manuscripts of Biblical writing has consistently been authenticated by achaelogical findings and serious scholarly study ; and, those who consistently oppose the Bible do so on the basis of a "faith" much less substantiated than those who believe.

    I find other logical deductions also more biased among those who disbelieve over those who believe. For example, those who would choose to dismiss the teachings and practises of believers fail to realize or comment on the goodness of a Christian world view versus that of any other secular or religious group. Non believers always seem to bring up seemingly difficult sayings in the Bible or seemingly non Christ like behavior in believers without giving credit to or arguing against the actual teachings of Christ nor their positive effect on mankind. In Seattle alone there are countless charitable groups doing good works for the hungry, poor, mentally ill, disinfranchised, and homeless and all are either started by, maintained by, or served by Christians and their churches. How many like kind charities can you name from other religious groups let alone non religious ones that serve these? And if you come up with one or two, do they serve all in need or just their own?

    What are the Ten Commandments?

    1. Have no other gods other than God.

    2. Don't have Gods made by human hands.

    3. Don't use God's name to support a cause not God's.

    4. Keep one day out of seven as a rest day.

    5. Respect your parents.

    6. Don't murder.

    7. Don't satisfy your sexual lusts outside of marriage.

    8. Don't steal.

    9. Don't lie to hurt another.

    10. Don't lust over that which rightfully belongs to another and not you.

    Are these so bad? Jesus said you could sum them up by loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and by loving your neighbor as yourself. Is that a bad thing?

    Can any of us say that we have kept our own self imposed rules and standards let alone God's? Are we in need of a Savior? I think the answer is obvious. If God emptied himself of his power and authority in order to voluntarily become one of us to meet his own perfect standard for his creation, is that a bad thing? If he showed us the way personally and then gave us the free choice to follow or reject him, don't you think it behooves us to consider the possibility that just maybe it isn't a myth and we really do need him? Is it possible that he inspired certain chosen men to record what we need to know in a way that those who recognize their need for him might be able to understand it, but only if they are really interested, but likewise in a way that would give the truly selfcentered just enough doubt to reject it? Just maybe he doesn't want those he created to be so arrogant and selfserving as to think that they could possibly be as wise as their own creator? Afterall, what would you say to an amoeba or slug that tried to make itself equal to you? But then again, you can't make an amoeba; can you? In fact man can't even string together more than a few strands of a tiny part of a chemical concoction that could be called part of an amino acid chain let alone give it "life."

    Besides, do you really think if someone or ones were to make up the Bible, they would do so the way it is?

    As was asked before: would you die for something you knew to be a lie?

    And one other thing: when you read the Bible or read it in the past, did you ever say, "God if this is real, reveal it to me. Speak to my heart. I want to know you. I want to know the truth." Or, did you read it to find something to discredit or prove your point? Or did you read it to say, "So there. I read it. So what?"

    I'm educated. I have a Bachelor of Science degree. I read literature. I listen to NPR among others and subscribe on line to major newspapers. I don't have my head in the sand and I consider science and modern thought. I try to obey the laws of logic in my thought processes. I am against the current war in Iraq. I think torturing prisoners is wrong. I believe we are to be good stewards of our God given resources. As a firefighter (I'm a Lieutenant on an engine company and have been in operations in the Seattle Fire Department for 25 years),I have seen thousands of people dead or dying or near death. I have seen men and women at what we would consider their humanly best and their humanly worst and trust me on this, if I didn't have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (which I do), then based on what I have witnessed, then I would want to have it. The same goes for my year in combat during Viet Nam as a US Marine Helo pilot.

    I could give you countless reassurances of my faith by actual answers to prayer I have personally experienced in my own life, let alone the lives of others, but it would take faith on your part to believe me. And if you won't believe the signs all around you as a flyfisher in this beautiful, if fallen, creation, then how can I expect you to believe me?

    Randy
     
  15. pwoens

    pwoens Active Member

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    Randy....excellent post!! You by chance have a proby working at your station by the name of Earl? He is stationed at Seatac and is my brother-in-law.

    As I have viewed this post with nothing but a loving and caring heart, I also have this little birdie (Jesse) in the back of my head mentioning Mathew 7:6. As much as I would love to see a seed planted and the scales removed from some eyes, It's simple a matter of that analogy about leading a horse to water...

    BR....I am very humbled :eek: Thank you for the kind words and keep on keepin on my brother.