On religion and such

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by BOBLAWLESS, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. dmoocher

    dmoocher Member

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    Not at all...

    I am against the intolerance and cruelty to others practiced by his followers.

    I'm against being looked at as someone who needs to be "saved".

    I'm against the Bush administration.

    I'm against TBN.

    I'm against tax free status for churches tht get involved with political issues.

    I'm against Ralph Reed, Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwell.

    I'm against Osama Bin Laden.

    I'm against the desacration of the natural world that I worship.


    I'm sure Christ was a fine fellow and a great teacher...but millions of his students are failing.
     
  2. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    How is it you all seem to zoom in on "are you just against Christ"?

    That was the least of my points. There is more to God than Christianity. But you all seem to have that in your sights and debates.

    So, Fire, Ready, Aim...
     
  3. Old Man

    Old Man Just an Old Man

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    I have read the bible several times and I find it interesting as a book. I do like the old testament as it is quite interesting as it has lots of action but the new testement is on the dry side.

    If Adam and Eve were to be the first persons on earth and have kids. Where did Cain go and find his wife at. No, he didn't make it with one of his sisters as at the time he killed his brother he didn't have any sisters. From what I read was that he(Cain) went out among the multidues(sp)(people). And where did the other people come from.

    No, from what I get out of the Bible is that it is an interesting read. Like you all are saying that the ark wasn't big enough for all living things. And if all died in the flood who wrote all of the pages beyond the flood. I guess that all of us are related. Hi all my brothers and sisters.

    This is a good thread as there is no name calling but BOB did you have to really start this. Were you bored and needed to talk to people. And how's the wife?

    Jim
     
  4. Jim Wallace

    Jim Wallace Smells like low tide.

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    This VOID is pretty featureless, boring, and downright lonely. Think We'll have us a Big Bang and lose ourselves in the funhouse. Wait! Hear me out! It'll be a grand and limitless illusion ....we'll forget who we are as we slow our vibrations into energy and become/create a Universe. We'll work it out as we go, fill every niche, explore every avenue, and it will be everchanging, always new, and Yes, we will forget who we are. It will seems strange and frightening, joyous and intriguing, us always in the process of becoming and continuously changing and morphing and metamorphing in a Cosmic Dance of Energy....
    We will get caught up in our illusion, lose our awareness in the sheer terror of the passion play, and be subject to all of the logical natural laws we come up with that are necessary to create this universe. We will become "lost in the funhouse" (to borrow a phrase from a strange creature called a human being and more specifically one who called himself a writer and lived on planet Earth in the futurepast). We will become ensnarled in incredible dramas, perform incredible acts, and go where it all takes us! We will Love, Hate, Fear, and Wonder...every nuance of emotion will be experienced! This Here/Now/Beingness will be fun...so lets go! Ripple in Still Waters!
    Remember, there are No Guarantees, except that you will experience and be experienced.
    The funniest things will be the human explanations of it all...We'll howl with delight at some of the absurdities some of us come up with. Oh yeah...forget who you are in the trauma of birth....get an "identity," lose yourself in the Funhouse, and dig it, do it, love it, fall in Love, learn to Hate, hate to wait, make love to it, lose it, hang on to it, beat it into a sword and then into a plowshare and then into a philosophy so we can beat each other to tears with words and eventually come to blows and then laugh or cry about it all later or sooner, if you prefer, and I need a better transistor and What the H...let it all go. Wonder.
    Maybe find yourself standing in a river one day, contemplating some conundrum and trying to fool another one of us (who is masquerading as a trout in this incarnation) into biting a bit of feathers 'n fur, just as we continuously fool ourselves in this eternal dance....What Fun! Thou art that!
    ........mysterious infinite changeling! C'mon...Lets go!

    And someone will come along and try to tell you how it is. Walk On!

    Jimbo :beer2: temporarily bio-camming for Mind
     
  5. dmoocher

    dmoocher Member

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    DSHS hasn't signed my consulting contract yet so I can't go back to work...I'm going fising.
     
  6. pwoens

    pwoens Active Member

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    Even if I wasnt so tired and sleep deprived, I still would not have understood a word you wrote Jimbo ;) :clown: :p
     
  7. Kalm

    Kalm Member

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    Can you all please slow down a little. I find this thread really interesting, but amidst having to go to work, caring for a sick child, and the angry looks from my wife ("on the computer again :beathead: ), I'm having a really difficult time keeping up much less post some of my own wacky views on religion.

    I will say that I am extremely encouraged by the views of some our more devout christian members - pwoens, teeg, jesse, etc. Especially in acknowledging some of the corruption of the present day church.
    At one time you could have counted me amongst the christian bashers. But when I drive past a presbyterian church in Spokane and the sign out front reads "How can one pray for peace while endorsing a war", I become even more angry at the idolatrous posers who give fair-minded christians a bad name. I can only imagine how a true believer feels. The way I look at it, an ass is an ass - regardless of belief sytem, ethnicity, sexual preference etc. If your religion assists you in not being one, then more power to you.

    "My one true religion is kindness." - The 14th Dalai Lama
     
  8. Jim Wallace

    Jim Wallace Smells like low tide.

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    Ha Ha, pwoens, it is all beyond understanding! How can something be known that cannot be understood? By directly experiencing with no ideas or words or descriptions. But don't be afraid to stand under it, on top of it, or kick it around. Its all experience for Mind. We are Mind. We are god(s)!

    An ancient philosopher named Patanjali wrote down some shizz that are now known as the Yoga Sutras. I am not a Hindu, but I have studied these Yoga Sutras. An interesting one states that: Conciousness tends to identify with whatever vehicle it is functioning thru, and because of this, the ego sense arises.

    Patanjali is suggesting here that this Consciousness that is functioning through you and me and everyone else (mobile portals, we are) is the SAME Consciousnes, and that our own sense of personal identity (our ego) is an necessary illusion created from each of us being in the World and locally situated in a particular place, each of us with our own perspective. This may be a tough concept to swallow, but Patanjali was saying that beneath the veneer of our personalities, egos, personal history/conditioning, and genetics, we are God.

    On another note, Alan Watts once called Mother Nature a "mutual eating society." Eat and be eaten. Continuous renewal on the wheel of death and rebirth...otherwise there would be no change. The concept of "eternal life" is, IMHO, misapplied to individuals....life is eternal, but we as indivisuals all must die and our carcasses take their places once again at the bottom of the food change.
    I don't personally believe in heaven or hell (or reincarnation, either).... only eternal change. The concept of karma is not mystical, it is simply cause-and-effect. Conciousness never dies, but the ego dissolves at death. Life itself goes on.

    You see, it all becomes clear with words and more words! :rofl:

    Jimbo, time-space coordinates unknown :cool:
     
  9. pwoens

    pwoens Active Member

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    Well, I take back everything I ever said about you :clown: :rofl: Maybe I will go fishing with you someday :p

    seriously though....do you want to fish saturday? drop me a pm if you are interested??

    oh, and that look from the wife, I get that all the time and it sucks ;)
     
  10. Teeg Stouffer

    Teeg Stouffer Fish Recycler

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    I can't say with 100% certainty that I have walked with you, but I bet our paths have looked similar at some point. Check your PMs.
     
  11. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    Old Man and Bob - and anyone else who asked about where Cain met his wife... My Old Testament prof in college had this answer that I really liked "he met her at a dance...". :thumb:

    Genesis and Revelations are 2 of the most mysterious books of the Bible. Fitting that they are the first and last books in it. Genesis tells us that God created the universe and life. It clearly isn't supposed to be a biology, chemistry, geology, genetics, history, or astronomy lesson. He created us to be smart and creative and knew we'd put the scientific puzzle pieces together on our own over time (sometimes we try to force pieces to fit that really don't, but that's the nature of puzzles and people...). Genesis - God created the heavens and the earth. God is the beginning and the end. There is no God before Him or after Him. God created all life. God created mankind in His image. Not that we are like little gods, but that we have many qualities the reflect our Father\Creator.

    Genesis is clear about many things and yet mysterious about many others.
    As with all of the Bible, it has been designed that way. If there was no mystery, no faith required, no questions, no doubt - there would be no logical choice. Everything would be in perfect black and white, right and wrong, good and evil, yes and no, blah blah blah. Some like to pretend that it is like that, but it can't be. Only God can see it that way. For us, there HAS to be a mystery. We HAVE to have free will. God does not want to think for us or choose for us. He does not want robots. He wants us to come to Him on our own choosing. For that to happen we HAVE to have compelling choices.

    I know my Bible pretty well. I did my own research on it's history. I know why the specific books are there and why others have not been included. I know the text has been preserved amazingly well through time. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't have any doubts or any questions. I have faith and confidence in God, but I am just an ordinary, imperfect person. And I find the mysteries of the Bible are real no matter who you are and how strong your faith is. And no, faith is not 'blind', or to be put more bluntly, based on ignorance and baseless hope. While there surely many who do fit that description, most Christians I know who have a strong faith are very bright and thoughtful people. And at the same time there are many ugly, selfish, hateful people who attend church and call themselves Christians. Again, this is because we are all imperfect people. I don't always "act like a Christian". But that should not reflect poorly on the nature of God and Jesus Christ (by the way, the nature of God is the SAME in the Old and New testament. What changes is how we relate to Him).

    Anyway, there are a lot of misconceptions about what a Christian is and how a Christian should act. Even within the Christian community. But as you study and learn about Christ and his message, you learn that the essential heart of the message is clear enough for a child to grasp, but the deeper mysteries of God and Bible will only be made clear when we meet Him face to face.
     
  12. David Holmes

    David Holmes Formerly known as "capmblade"

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    I'm curious. My parents told me there are three things you never discuss at a social function. Money, politics and religion.

    They didn't explain why, but as I got older I realized that you don't discuss money because it creates an artificial tension on your guests has nothing to do with being social.

    And you don't discuss politics or religion either because you aren't going to convert anyone to your side and everyone's just going to get upset.

    So my queston is has this discussion been worth anything? Has anyone changed their minds or have they simply become more entrenched in their own views?

    Have we unwittingly bitten into Bob's plan to divide an conquer? Is there now a camp of "grouped-together-christians defending their position"?
     
  13. Bright Rivers

    Bright Rivers Member

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    Lately, I have not been able to check in here as often as I’d like. Once or twice a week for a few minutes at most, just to see what’s on the menu. Regrettably, no time to post. But in the case of this thread, I’m making time, for when an old man asks about such things at midnight . . .

    I am glad that people are asking questions about God and faith. Even absurd questions about God are good if they get people thinking about spiritual matters. Like the kid in GI Joe’s asking which flavor Powerbait to soak his treble hook in. At least he’s on the right track. “Here kid, try the Chroma-Glow with glitter.” If he keeps at it, I’m sure he’ll pick up a fly rod one day. Saved, finally.

    If you’re looking for someone to convince you that God is real, the Bible is true, or that Noah could build a big enough boat, don’t look at me. I cannot explain God – I won’t even try. I do not have empirical evidence from three independent sources. I won’t try to convince you of anything. All I can do is relate my own experience.

    When I was a kid, I thought Disneyland was real. The older I got and the more often I went, I began to see through the façade and realize that it’s all a big production. Fun, but fake. When I was in college I got pulled into an Amway type MLM thing. At first, I thought it was the most brilliant marketing plan ever and I was going to make a million bucks. It didn’t take long to realize that something was missing. It was a house of cards – a big ponzi scheme.

    My experience with Christianity is exactly the opposite. There are plenty of reasons to doubt. The questions raised in this thread are but the tip of the iceberg. But the longer I have followed Christ, and the more I investigate, and the more diligently I seek God, the more convincing proofs I see that God is real and that He has a plan. If it was all show and no substance, I would have the opposite experience, wouldn’t I? I am an educated man with advanced degrees. When exactly am I supposed to realize that I’ve been sold a bill of goods? And though I have seen “men of God” fail all around me, I have never seen the word of God fail. To the contrary, in over twenty years of following Christ, it is when I have turned away from Him, and from His words, that things have always begun to unravel on me.

    Of course, my own experience will never convince anyone but me. But I must tell you, it certainly has me convinced. I only suggest that you keep on asking and searching. Jesus (and chadk) called the kingdom of God “a mystery.” Indeed, it is. And while I don’t have it solved yet, two decades of sleuthing has me more intrigued than ever.

    And if it all seems just a little too far fetched for you, a little ridiculous, a little foolish, don’t feel bad. I believe that’s exactly what God had in mind.

    “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. . . . For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.” I Corinthians 1:18
     
  14. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    I actually enjoy seeing what some people come up with as reasons not to believe. Jesus was gay, Jesus smoked dope, Jesus was a rich man, Jesus was simply a good moral teacher, Jesus was made up like a fairy tale, etc etc.

    I appreciate the oringal challenges that many bring up that cause me to pause and think. If I shy away from tough questions and bold challenges, what does that say about the depth of my faith? Besides, like anyone good at debating, it helps to know and predict the other side's arguements in advance. As I raise my boys I'll discuss these things with them. Let them know what they will be confronted with when they hit the universities and dine with those who are 'enlightened' in the ways of the world...
     
  15. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    BR - welcome back!!! And nicely said :thumb: :beer2:
    I was about to send you a PM or email to see if you were still alive...