On religion and such

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by BOBLAWLESS, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. Big Tuna

    Big Tuna Member

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    Inland,
    You must fish the Clearwater. I've only fished the Clearwater once, but Coyote Fishnet is one fine looking drift. Unfortunately, despite numerous trips through it, we came up empty (while the gear guys w/ corkies did quite well). Someday I hope to return and take another crack at that river. A friend and colleague grew up on the Lapwai reservation and his parents live in a beautiful home overlooking the Clearwater. At the base of their canyon is a lovely drift we named Wilson's drift. Never got to fish it because the whole time we were there people were at that drift EARLY. That's nice country down there...particularly if you like to steelhead.

    Regards
     
  2. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Stop Killing Wild Steelhead!

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    Huh? Whats this? Fishing talk on a Religion Website?!

    Next thing you know they will be talking about techniques and favorite waters, rods, flylines and such! :eek:
     
  3. Big Tuna

    Big Tuna Member

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    Whoops! Dont' want to be accused of starting a controversy ;)
     
  4. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Stop Killing Wild Steelhead!

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    Heathen! :thumb:
     
  5. Davy

    Davy Active Member

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    you called?
     
  6. Jerry Daschofsky

    Jerry Daschofsky Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh, I thought he was talking about me. :thumb:
     
  7. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    BR:

    Since I am the author of the post that so astounded you (post #100), I will drop you a PM and cite at least three different posts that preceded mine which evoked my remark. You need to do better research before you rebut something with an assertion not warranted by evidence which is very clearly written and plain to see.

    Bob, the Man of whom you so love to ruffle his feathers. :mad:
     
  8. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    I guess the person that came up with the saying Nobody ever shot Santa Claus never met you, Bob! :eek:
     
  9. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    But aren't you guilty of the same thing that you complain Christian's are doing to you?

     
  10. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    Cactus:

    How many cups are we talking here? Christians are killing the wild steelhead? ????

    Bob the :confused:
     
  11. dmoocher

    dmoocher Member

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    This is a fun read...

     
  12. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    Nice little story Dave. Sounds like the typical 'enlightened' university professor picking a fight with a well intentioned (but a little naive about the world) college freshman. He must have been really proud of himself. LOL
    She probably new exactly what to say, but was so astounded at his ignorant and spiteful comments, she just had to back off...

    "Then I said, you tell me god will forgive me, BUT WHO WILL FORGIVE GOD? .... You say your god is all-knowing, all-good and loving, all-powerful. This would imply that he knows the suffering, has the power to stop it or change it, and yet does nothing, ..."

    It is pretty simple really. It goes back to the concept of 'free will'. If God were a 24X7 baby sitter, or created a 'perfect' world full of robots who did the 'right thing' all the time, etc, it would not be 'free will'. And as I said before, we would not have real and compelling choices. God HAS to allow people to choose and act in evil ways. Without evil, death, pain, sadness - we would not really know good, life, joy, and happiness. God does not DO those things Himself, but he HAS to allow them. In his BIG PICTURE point of view -where the innocent or those who pass His righteous judgment will live with Him in heaven for eternity, the pain and suffering on this world are but a spec in time.

    Anyway, I could go on on, but I getta go...
     
  13. estill

    estill Member

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    This is my beliefs on statements like this one.

    God originally created a perfect place for man to fellowship (hang out) with Him. (Garden of Eden)

    Man then became greedy, and decided to see if there was more than what God was offering to him. (Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, so they could have the knowledge of good and evil.)

    Because of their actions, the ground was cursed. Man must now work the land "through painful toil."

    This is my paraphrase of the first couple of chapters in the book of Genesis. How I interpret these passages, is that man turned his back on God. Because of the knowledge we now posses we get to experience everything the world has to offer. This includes earthquakes and diseases, as well as the beauty of fishing that secret hole. I have yet to find any passeges in the Bible that exempts anyone from the hardships and evil that are in the world. I have though found passages letting us know that we will experience them. The 23rd Psalm reads:
    4 Even though I walk
    through the valley of the shadow of death,
    I will fear no evil,
    for you are with me;
    your rod and your staff,
    they comfort me.
    I'd like to highlight the word "through." We have to go through the bad stuff in this world. The good news is that God is willing to walk with anyone that asks him.

    I don't see much difference between this and telling a child not to touch a stove because it is hot. Does this make the parent evil, is the child decides to touch it?
     
  14. Bright Rivers

    Bright Rivers Member

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    dmoocher --

    I thought you were all about science and facts – empirical evidence and demonstrable proof. If I didn’t know better, I’d think you were beginning to venture into the realm of philosophy. That’s alright, though. Philosophy, as a discipline, gets scant attention these days, which is a pity. Some of History’s greatest thinkers never set foot inside the lab. Socrates, Plato, Cicero, Voltaire, Locke . . . Darwin's work, when you really examine it, was more philosophy than science.

    I suspect the conversation you posted never really took place. Or, more likely, it took place in some form, but the final product is what the author came up with the next day, saying, “Dang! That’s what I should have said!” (happens to me everyday – which is why I love the edit function on this board). Even so, it’s very believable. I am quite certain I have sent one or two Jehovah’s Witnesses away from my door a little confused about their doctrine.

    What I hope you realize is that the questions you are raising are not novel. From Aurelius Augustinus to C.S. Lewis and beyond, these questions have been asked and answered ad nauseam by minds far greater than yours or mine. The answers are not pat or simple, of course (they never are in philosophy), but they are quite satisfactory. If you have genuine interest in how suffering can exist in a world supposedly created by a good and loving God, I recommend for your reading, The Problem of Pain, by C.S. Lewis. At the very least, his analysis is more intellectually stimulating than your clever friend in the emergency room.
     
  15. dmoocher

    dmoocher Member

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    BR...I appologize for not referencing the source....I got this from this Pantheist site on the web. This is from a 48 year old former Catholic nun (if you can believe her) who could not find the answers whe was looking for.

    As far as Science and facts...yes I do...that's why I keep searching...I haven't resigned my self to attributing everything I don't understand to "Gods will".

    Neither one of us is going to convince the other and I'm not attempting to convince you of anything...I'm illustrating that there are others that have the same issues, concerns and questions that I do and we believe that those who seem to have all the answers...don't. BTW: I love C.S Lewis.

    I'll let Galilleo sum it up for me...
    Chad...What free will is there in a Tsunami, cholera, malaria...people have free will to choose Diptheria?... or is the old testament God reaking some old time vengance?

    I recall some christian leaders saying the Tsunami was God smiting the Swedish sodomites vacationing in Indonesia...talk about collateral damage!