SFR - Between a Rock and Hard Place

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by chief, Jun 6, 2013.

  1. triploidjunkie

    triploidjunkie Active Member

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    If there has been any improvements since these extra fees(yes extra) have come into play, I've yet to see it. Just the opposite from my perspective. I pay way too much in taxes as a small business owner, buy my Washington fishing license, which for me should include fishing Washington state land without an added fee to park on the same land. I might be misinformed, but I'm no suckerfish.
     
  2. cabezon

    cabezon Sculpin Enterprises

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    A quick Civics lesson. While we may view it all as the "government". They (which really means us if you really think it through...) don't see it that way. They see it as city and county parks and land, state land (State Parks, WDFW access points, DNR land), and federal land (Park Service, Forest Service, BLM, etc.). Because they never went to kindergarten (they're governments, they can't go to school...), they never learned to share. But each has employees to pay, gas to buy. repairs to make, middle and upper managers to pay.... etc.

    It used to be that we paid a chunk of taxes into a general pool and government paid out money to do "good works" (your opinion may diverge... - beside the point). Specific taxes were unconnected to specific expenses. But, because tax revenues have not kept pace with the costs (or desire to spend. I'll let that one slide.), government has shifted to a more ala carte model for some functions. If you use it, you pay for it (or at least some of it. Take a look at how much of WDFW budget comes from the General Fund - little old ladies in Tacoma who never use WDFW or Microserfs who would freak out if they left their cubicles). If there is a constituency with the means to pay (after all, you can't get blood from a turnip) and if the service that the constituency desires is hard to argue as a CENTRAL function of government, costs have been shifted toward that constituency = user fees (look carefully at the details on your next plane ticket...).

    Therefore, you may be asked to pay at a city or county park (not common in Washington). To access many areas of state land, you need a Discovery Pass for State Park, DNR, or WDFW accesses or just your WDFW parking permit for WDFW access. If you are fishing or accessing fishing on Federal land or via Federal accesses (e.g., parking at Lmuma or Big Pines / The Slab (= BLM land) on the Yakima or Coldwater Lake in Mt. St. Helens National Monument (= Forest Service Land), you need one of several possible Federal passes, such as the America the Beautiful Annual Pass. I can't believe how many times I've seen fishers parking in the Coldwater Parking lot who think that the Fed will accept their WDFW parking permit - flunked civics.... In some rivers, like the Hoh or the Yak or even lakes, like Chopaka, you might need a state pass for one access and a federal pass for another access.

    Yes, each of them has a fee. Yes, it is a confusing list of acronyms, just like PMD, EHC, which we all managed to master.... Yes, it costs you money. Still, it is less that the cost of a round of golf for each.... And what would you rather do?

    Steve
     
  3. triploidjunkie

    triploidjunkie Active Member

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    Shitballs!!! It sounds like it's the sport is turning into golf. Pretty soon I'll need a caddy to carry all my five weights.
     
  4. wlai

    wlai Member

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    Cabezon is right. Me personally, I hate this nickel and dime stuff, but hey people voted for all the Eyman initiatives trying to save a buck, so we get what most Washingtonians wanted, and Eyman gets a fat paycheck every time.
     
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  5. Alex MacDonald

    Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

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    Move to CA and register your car there; then we'll see how much you don't like Timmy! There are plenty of "discovery" sites that will also take your WDFW access pass-the one that came with your fishing license. It'll say that on the bottom of the sign. Forest pass is superceded by the senior lifetime access pass you can get at places like Glacier Peak and forest "service" stations, for just $10, but you gotta be 62 or older. So there's some breaks out there, especially if you're older than dirt, like me!
     
  6. zen leecher aka bill w

    zen leecher aka bill w born to work, forced to fish

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    That money wasn't "lost". The funds generated by the state parks was appropriated for the general fund to pass out for social programs. Now we have to pay for a discover pass to make up for the shortfall.

    I see Washington becoming the welfare state of the west.
     
  7. Dan Nelson

    Dan Nelson Hiker, Fisher, Writer, Bum

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    Realistically, this is already the case. You only need two passes to cover all public access in Washington: One state and one federal.

    Washington's Discover Pass covers all State Parks, DNR and WDFW lands for day use. $30 annually.
    http://www.discoverpass.wa.gov/

    Federal America the Beautiful covers all USFS, National Park Service, BLM and National Wildlife Refuge day-use NATION WIDE. $80
    http://www.recreation.gov/marketing.do?goto=/ATBPass/America the Beautiful Pass Series.html

    Note that anyone aged 62 or older can get this pass for $10 and its good for the rest of their lives.
     
  8. Vladimir Steblina

    Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working

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    Several comments......having run a fee program for a major federal agency for ten years prior to retirement.

    1) One pass. Forget it. We did spend time with all the Federal, state, and some local agencies trying to come up with one pass. Revenue sharing is the problem. Lots of effort for little gain. There were some passes that crossed lines, but they have disappeared over time. Vote with your checkbook. If you want the money to go the Forest Service, buy your pass there. The BLM, National Park Service, etc. That's my issue with the Discovery Pass I want MY MONEY to go to DNR not state parks.

    2) The public lands were never set up to make money or even be self-supporting on the recreation program. In my Forest Economics classes we determined the marginal log (the part of the tree that you left in the woods) since it wouldn't pay for its way out of the timber sale. For recreation, it was how much money do you want to lose??

    This is the elephant in the room nobody talks about. Recreation programs will never pay their own way!! They were not designed to do that.....it is a social good. Now we can make them pay their own way....see KOA's, etc. Is that what you want your public lands to look like??

    State Parks is going to go through round 3 soon.

    3) Government employees are bad businessmen. They let political pressures trump economics everytime. My viewpoint was that 40% of the campgrounds and probably over half the trail system needed to be closed. Not public access, just the facilities since they were little used. I retired rather than fight that battle.....the decision was made to close .01% of facilities. Nobody in the agency wanted to fight that battle with the public. So we end up with lots of bad, little used recreation sites instead of providing quality facilities that we could maintain.

    4) Eyeman and government costs. The issue is not tax revenues. It is tax breaks for large corporations in Washington state and health care and other social service costs. Yeah, I know corporations do NOT pay taxes only collect them, but in the case of Washington state it meant people like the Sultan of Brunai paid Washington state taxes. Large corporations are also very efficient at collecting taxes. Right now in Washington, the tax burden is on consumers and small business. Even with that tax revenues are at record highs.

    Health care and other social service costs. A friend that follows the state budget says that health care is where all the state money is going. Social service costs are difficult to cut.....so we cut higher education, state parks and those type of programs instead. Have a discussion with YOUR legislator about YOUR priorities.

    5) Government regulation. Yes, the government regulates itself and spends lots of money on paperwork in the process. I had secured funding for a no-brainer move of a campground to protect fisheries. The studies and NEPA documents when completed took the ENTIRE campground construction money!! I ended up shifting funds just to get it built, since the permit would expire in about five years or so.

    Public land funding levels have not really changed that much over 40 years....but the money now is spend on studies instead of "real stuff".

    The good news is as the baby boom generation ages and dies, health care costs will fall. The bad news is that demand for public lands will also fall given current demographics. In 20 years, the issue will be keeping public lands in public ownership since very few people will care about them.

    Recreation is just one benefit of public lands. We really need to maintain public access to ALL public lands and keep them in public ownership.

    In the short run, it will be about fees. Soon the discussion will shift to "should we have public lands" since we cannot afford them. Get ready for that fight.
     
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  9. wlai

    wlai Member

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    Very true. I don't care if you are democrats or republicans, corporations should NOT be people and have outsized influence compared to the citizenry. Most of "our" corporations aren't even Americans in truth, that's why they are called MULTI-national. They avoid taxes by stashing money all over the globe, most recent example Apple, and some wiggle out of paying a dime in taxes, e.g. GE. Oh, and they collaborate with the government and snope on you too!

    As long as they get their way, by lobbying and most recently buying elections via super PACs and a million other loopholes, we the people will have to deal with less everything to balance priorities.
     
  10. Brian Miller

    Brian Miller Be vewy vewy qwiet, I'm hunting Cutthwoat Twout

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    This is really pretty damned simple to understand. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be. And BTW *Note - If you are a disabled Vet receiving any benefits from the federal government for your service connected disability, you can get a free Federal lifetime access pass regardless of your age.
     
  11. Vladimir Steblina

    Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working

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    Any person with a disability can get a Federal lifetime access pass.......and that includes children. As long as your kid is in the car with you!!!

    Great deal, for camping and visiting to very expensive National Parks.